Episode 267 – Unstoppable Teacher and Disability Expert with Stephanie Cawthon

Unstoppable Mindset

Stephanie Cawthon grew up deaf. She tells us her story of how for her childhood she was quite isolated due to not having good methods of communicating with those around her. It wasn’t until college and the advent of the Americans With Disabilities Act that she began to learn to advocate for herself. Through self advocacy and some good teaching she finally learned American Sign Language, (ASL) and finally began to communicate efficiently with those around her. Stephanie has proven since college to be a dedicated teacher. She now is a tenured professor of Educational Psychology at the University of Texas Austin. In 2023 she founded the National Disability Center for Student Success. This center and the five-year grant that funds it is providing and will continue to offer invaluable information and techniques for including persons with disabilities into society especially within the college and university system. Stephanie has authored several books including a non-academic one which is being released on September 15 of 2024. On our podcast Stephanie and I are joined by two interpreters. Amanda is voicing Stephanie’s comments to me and Audrey is signing my comments to Stephanie. This episode gives us all a tremendous look into the philosophies and concepts about inclusion of persons with disabilities. I trust that you will enjoy and learn a lot from our time with Stephanie. About the Guest: Stephanie W. Cawthon, PhD, is an internationally renowned author, researcher, and consultant who brings relatable insights and real-world skills to her mission that—when we tap the power of accessibility—we ensure disabled people can thrive and succeed. Dr. Cawthon’s groundbreaking research has been funded by over $50 million in federal and other grants. In 2023 she founded the National Disability Center for Student Success at The University of Texas at Austin, where she is a tenured Professor of Educational Psychology. She also brings a lived experience to her work. In addition to her congenital hearing loss, she has several mental health and physical disabilities that have a significant impact on her ability to engage in important life activities. Dr. Cawthon earned her Bachelor’s and Master’s degrees from Stanford University and her doctorate from the University of Wisconsin at Madison. Ways to connect with Stephanie: Website: www.StephanieCawthon.com Book Website: www.DisabilityIsHuman.com Social Media: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephanie-cawthon/ Twitter: @swcawthon Instagram: DrStephanieCawthon The website for the National Disability Center: www.NationalDisabilityCenter.org About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! 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Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And it is called that for those who may not know, because inclusion for us comes first, since diversity typically tends to leave out discussions about disabilities, and today, I think we're going to be talking a lot about disabilities, among other things. Our guest is Stephanie Cawthon. And Stephanie is a person who happens to be deaf, so what I say is being signed to Stephanie, and then there is somebody who is going to be interpreting what Stephanie will be saying through sign to me. So you will notice as we chat, there will be some pauses, and that is because signing is going on. And so we will work with that. And I think it will be a fine time all the way around anyway. So let's go ahead and start Stephanie. I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And Stephanie happens to be a person who works in Texas, among other things, in 2023 she founded the National Disability Center, Center for Student Success, and she has had a lot of grants that have helped her, but she is now with her Center at the University of Texas at Austin, and I was telling her before we started, that I will, recent, or soon, be in San Marcos, Texas to deliver a speech. So that's not too far from Austin, and I will be accompanied by my guide dog, Alamo boy. It's going to be a Texas world so it is Alamo, as in, Remember the Alamo? So Alamo and I have been partners for about six and a half years, and that's kind of fun. Anyway. That aside, Stephanie, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here, Stephanie Cawthon ** 03:21 and I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for the warm welcome. Michael Hingson ** 03:26 Well, it is my pleasure. Why don't we start, if you would, by you telling us a little bit about, kind of the early Stephanie, Stephanie growing up and all that, and sort of give us that as a background. It's always kind of fun to go back to the beginning somewhat, Stephanie Cawthon ** 03:40 okay, sure. Thank you again. So early Stephanie, all right, me growing up, well, I grew up living in Canada, and then we moved to the United States when I was eight years old. And so that's sort of that change was interesting. I grew up without sign language at all at that time, ASL or any signed language was not prevalent, nor was it even allowed to be had. It was speech only, speech therapy, sitting in the front of the room, wearing hearing aids and that type of thing that was my experience. I learned to read lips pretty early on, and so I really paid attention in school, primarily to my teachers, friends, less so really not so much. Communicating with friends and peers was rough as a youth, because it's hard to pay attention to speech, for eating and then socially things. And paying attention to a person with disability is rough. Now the teacher was focused, and so I could focus on them. And at that time, my last name began with an A and so, uh. That was nice. I it was really and I received A's in school, and I cared so much about education because of that, I was in the front of the room. I was paying attention, and I had a pretty decent experience. And then later on, I went to college, and then the ADA happened roughly the same time that law was passed, about the time I joined the college setting, and that was new for me. I didn't know how to advocate for myself. I had no experience in that arena growing up. And so then in college, people would say, Hey, you should have accommodations. What should we do? How can we accommodate you? And I literally had no idea what that meant. I was a young person. I didn't it wasn't meaningful to me. I tried, but I didn't have a lot of training. You know, there wasn't training out there. I didn't have any explanation. There were no deaf peers for me at the time, and in that space, I was still kind of alone and isolated in that in that space. And so within that experience, in my early college college years, I did take an American Sign Language class, or ASL class, and I remember the first day of class, and I was thinking, Oh, this communication is so clear. Wow. How have I survived every day with communication? It's struggling. There were breakdowns constantly. It's what I did, and then it was my responsibility. It was on me to fix it and understand it and repair that. But there was a Deaf instructor for my ASL class, and they called on me to make sure I was understanding clearly the first time. They called me to that action like No, no, you understand clear the first time, not the second or third time. Make sure you get it that first time around. And so for me, that really helped shape my idea of what is it mean to be part of a group that communicates clearly, not always only paying attention to the teacher, but also having like people behind me and students and peers that I could engage with and still have that accent, that access and then have a full fledge, like a full whole experience. So that that really shaped me. So I'll stop there. Well, Michael Hingson ** 07:30 what's interesting is that people did say to you, you have to get it right the first time. That immediately makes me think of something that I spent time learning, which is about Morse code. Everybody thinks of Morse codes as dots and dashes and so on, but the really good teachers of Morse code teach that you need to really, really recognize the sound, and they they actually the best Morse code course I ever encountered transmitted all of the the Morse code as they were teaching it at a fast enough speed that you couldn't sit there and count dots and dashes. You had to really learn the sound of of an a, of a B and a C and so on. And the people who were successful with that course because they focused on it and they focused on learning the sound. Really learned code very well. So I kind of empathize with your instructor, who said, No, you got to get it the first time, because it's all about really being acclimatized or becoming accustomed to something that you never really experienced before. So that was probably pretty cool. I would would assume you think so. Well, Stephanie Cawthon ** 08:47 really, I think the the point for me was now that it was possible for me to get it the first time right, the first time that information was communicated without ASL, because I was struggling, I struggled to communicate. I struggled to hear and discern that information. Right now I'm able to access it and retain it that first time because of access to ASL, Michael Hingson ** 09:12 and it was learning, in a sense, a whole new language. And for you, it was a very visual language, but at least you you sound, it sounds like you had a good teacher to to help with that. I know even today, for people who are low vision, the emphasis is on getting better glasses, enhancing your eyesight. And unfortunately, what all too often doesn't happen is when children are in in class, in lower grades and sometimes even going higher, they aren't really taught some of the blindness skills that would really enhance their life, like learning Braille, which doesn't mean you don't use your eyesight. But learning Braille because you can probably read it faster than you can read with low vision environment that you have, and also because you can read with Braille a lot longer than you can with eyesight without getting headaches. So there's a lot of evolution that needs to go on. And unfortunately, a lot of the professionals really doing the best service, because they're still approaching what happens with eyesight. And I suspect, although it's getting better, I think for you, probably a lot quicker. For people who are deaf as well, it isn't all just about using your ears, and people are starting to learn that, Stephanie Cawthon ** 10:44 yeah, for sure. And I understand the idea of it not only being about an accommodation or accommodating the thing, but it's also about how we navigate the world, right? I think that that physically, as you said, it's two things so that, but in addition to that, but how we think about information sharing? You know, do we make things accessible for more than just one type or kind of audience? Are we reading plus hearing, plus a transcript and a video? What kinds of things are in place to communicate? And that's critical for me. That's so important. I think giving people options for how they access that information, and then they get to figure out which one works best for them today, in that situation, I think that's so important, is those options and allowing for that piece. Michael Hingson ** 11:47 And I think as part of that, it's engaging, or becoming more involved in the conversation about disabilities and about everything else, so that people become comfortable enough. How can we best accommodate, or how can we best help, rather than being afraid to ask, because they grew up thinking that they could offend if they start to talk about a disability. So it is important that the conversation needs to happen, because, in reality, we know best what's going to work for us, Stephanie Cawthon ** 12:21 certainly. And one thing that people often will say or ask me is, what do I say? How do I talk about this? How do I talk about disability? And so that's a very basic level thing that people often don't know what to do about it, or what to do with it. And so for me, my recent work has been to figure out how to share ideas, share stories, and connect people. And so it's not just feeling weird about it, you know, but putting that information, those stories out there. Michael Hingson ** 12:56 But why do you think people do feel weird about it? What do you what do you think the basic reason for that is, and how do we address it? Stephanie Cawthon ** 13:04 It's fear based. People are afraid is where it comes from. You know, disability is scary, and so I think for a lot of people, that's what it is, and that's the bottom line is in that it's fear based. Michael Hingson ** 13:20 I agree, absolutely. I think it is fear based. It's needlessly fear based, but it still is fear based because we're not teaching people in general that disability doesn't really mean a lack of ability, but rather it means that you may be doing things in a different way, but you're still doing the same thing. And we've got to get people in general over this this fear and this perception that they have, that if you have a so called disability, then you are less than I am, whoever I am, and we've got to get enough into the conversation so that people begin to recognize, hey, you're really no different than I am. You just do things in a different way. And the reality is, everyone does things in a different way from a lot of other people. So why should it be an issue? But it is, Stephanie Cawthon ** 14:21 yeah, and for me, one thing that I respect is that many people, it's their experience and their attitude surrounding disabilities, and they vary widely so that fear is from a real place. They're coming from somewhere, some experience or something. So that's part of how I approach and support people and help them recognize and understand the impact of that negative negativity and. The ableism that comes with it. And if we ignore oppression and we ignore that, that is not helpful, that's not helpful. So just to recognize and respect that once it's been disclosed, I find useful. Michael Hingson ** 15:14 I think that the whole issue about disabilities and fear and so on. Is is something that that we do talk about a little bit and need to talk about more. But I also point out to people that, in fact, everyone has a disability on this planet. Everyone on the planet has a disability, and for most people, the reality is, eyesight is a disability because you're light dependent. And the fact of the matter is that we have done a lot since Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb to make sure that light is available on demand, but all that's doing is covering up the disability of light dependence. And so it works until it doesn't but, but the fact of the matter is, most people don't view that as a disability, because it is so common. Most everyone is light dependent, and we have light available when we need it, as I said, until we don't, and then it becomes an issue. Again. Stephanie Cawthon ** 16:20 Yes, and you know, covid taught us a lot, just to kind of tag on to that about how tech technology can support those with disabilities in different ways. And in addition to that, like you said, All people need access to options. You know, we all have a disability, and as I was stating, having those options is good, because there can be a breakdown at any time, but having options available, like I said, I think I feel like we learned that from covid, covid is how what do we do? And people feel like they have a disability when their internet goes out, right? They just don't know what to now, what? So it's interesting. It's, it's real interesting, living in this time, in this place Michael Hingson ** 17:05 you're familiar with a device that's not, I think, so much around anymore, called Blackberry, one of the early devices that people use to communicate electronically. Stephanie Cawthon ** 17:18 Oh, I'll, I'll clue you into something. I'm old enough, I do know what a Blackberry is. I Michael Hingson ** 17:22 figured you were well, I remember, gosh, it's got to be now, 15 or more years ago, that suddenly Research In Motion, the company that that makes them and has all the servers and so on, had an outage, and it happened late at night, but BlackBerry suddenly went silent for about 12 hours, and I heard that there were people who committed suicide. A lot of people panicked and so on, because suddenly they lost access to the technology that they were so used to, which I guess is an interesting thing. They became so comfortable with it, they were able to use it. But the other side of that is that they didn't learn that it's always good to have options rather than just relying on one thing, Stephanie Cawthon ** 18:13 you know, and for me, that becomes a design issue. Yeah, that's how I look at that, how we design our lives. Specifically, it's important to have options not wait until something breaks down or So similarly, don't wait for a disabled person to show up before you think about accessibility. Let's think about this. Let's think about the design from the get go. For me that is so important to really think about that in advance and plan around that and not wait for something to come up, have options in the design phase of anything. Right? Michael Hingson ** 18:49 It's, it's important to do that, and we don't do it collectively or even individually, nearly enough. It is. It is why I always emphasize to people that although I use a guide dog, the dog's job isn't to know where to go and how to get there. That's my job. The dog's job is to make sure that we walk safely. And when I was working in the World Trade Center, I spent a fair amount of time learning all of the various options of ways and ways to get out of the World Trade Center from where I was and wherever I might be in the World Trade Center, not ever obviously wanting there to be an emergency, but at the same time, knowing that something like that could occur, and wanting to be as prepared as possible. And of course, as it turned out, that was something that ended up needing to be addressed and accomplished. But the other part about it is knowing that kind of thing and knowing your options is is crucial to be. Because it develops a mindset in you that when suddenly you have to deal with figuring out the options. If you really know what your options are, your mindset allows you to analyze and decide what you want to do. And I think that all too often dealing with emergencies, for example, people don't, oh, I can just follow the signs that'll tell me where the emergency exit is. That works until maybe you can't get out that way. But the real issue is knowledge helps your mind and your mental faculties learn to focus and not allow yourself to be completely overwhelmed by fear. Stephanie Cawthon ** 20:42 And for me, I think that that's one characteristic of a disabled worker or employee that's a gift to the team, right is that flexibility and that flexible mindset, how to problem solve and what are the options there and available to you, and then what happens when one of those options breaks down? That's always something we're considering. And one thing that I typically notice that is actually quite surprising is when a disabled person gives these options, some people on the team will say, I never thought of that. And they respond with such shock. It's very surprising to me, because the person with a disability will then say, well, this is my life. This is every day I think of this. I do this, I bring this. This is just what I'm used to. This is this is how I do it. And so it's very interesting. Sometimes I'll post on social media, on different platforms and stuff. Why hire disabled people? And I'll say reason number one, and etc. And the first one is typically problem solving skills, because they have to that is how they navigate the world. So Michael Hingson ** 22:02 and you're absolutely correct. And another is that if you hire a person with a disability, the odds are overall, you will be gaining a much more loyal employee, because we know how hard it is to find that job in the first place. And if you're going to be welcoming to us, we're going to want to, if at all possible, stay where we're welcome, rather than having to go off and face the same challenges of trying to retrain or train people and invade a new environment and make it work again. So it's always better if we find a welcoming place, we're going to want to stay there. And that says is true, not only for employment, but for brand loyalty. If I go online and find a website that's accessible to me and I can shop on that website, I'm apt to want to try to continue to shop at that website, as opposed to going somewhere else, if I possibly can, because that website was welcoming enough to make sure that I was included in their shopping experience. Stephanie Cawthon ** 23:11 The same is true of technology and software in that realm, if it works for you, you're not going to be hopping around and trying to find something different. The system is set up to be hard enough already, so to find some sort of assistive technology or software, people typically stick with what works Michael Hingson ** 23:34 well. And you're you're absolutely correct by any standard. And I think it's important to recognize that, and that's why we live in a pretty exciting time, technologically speaking, and we're getting into a more exciting time disability wise speaking, because more and more people, although it's happening a lot slower than a lot of us would like, more and more people are beginning to be a little bit more sensitive to the fact that we don't all do things the same way, and that there's there is value in making sure that disabilities are included. But it does happen slowly, Stephanie Cawthon ** 24:20 and I think outside of the disability or disabled community, that is where we'd like to see the biggest improvements, right, right? It's typically, as you mentioned, slow or incremental disabled people talking to disabled people is one thing, and that's a limited impact until we become leaders, until we become creators, until we are part of the decision makers and that process, then that's when I think the impact is considerably greater. Michael Hingson ** 24:58 Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Well, for you, having disabilities has certainly had a lot to do with shaping your life the way it is. Do you think you'd be doing something much different if you didn't happen to have disabilities? Or, you know, has it really shaped your life in a lot of ways Stephanie Cawthon ** 25:23 that's an interesting question for me, because I think it'd probably be similar, you know, I'm in education, so I would have probably become faculty at any university, at a university somewhere that seems, you know, for me, that's a core value. So that's something that would have remained the same. I definitely would not be studying disabilities. I would think if I didn't have a disability myself, I don't think that that would have ever occurred to me. Now, maybe from the beginning, you know my first interest that it was language and language acquisition that was my, my first focus, and that was rooted in my understanding of deaf children. And so that might have been different, also, because that was my experience. Mine was different, right? And so that really motivated me and my interest in language and language acquisition, it was based on my experience. So that could have been different. Michael Hingson ** 26:37 I can appreciate that. Well, how do you in terms of your experiences and so on? How do you define accessibility, and why is that important? Stephanie Cawthon ** 26:51 So that definition really becomes a part of a larger picture. For me, I think really, there are three pieces that I think about. I think about accessibility, meaning connection, and then there are three pieces to that connection to myself or yourself. So an individual relationship. How do I know myself? How do I envision me and my future? What are my individual personal goals that I've set? Do I have a positive self confidence, all of those things, any those all relate to accessibility for me in terms of connection to self. And then the second piece of that is connection to information. So many things out in the world are based on shared communication and information that is out there. Think about how much community development and how local, national and worldwide. Information is just shared at them. It's out there. The content is out there, these ideas and this information. So accessibility to information, for me, is a major key. I have noticed a lot of negative impact on disabled people who have deprivation of that access to information and and just lack of access, it's not acceptable they don't have that information. So that second piece is key, connection to information. The third piece of it is connection to others, to other people, accessibility to other individuals. So if you remember my story about growing up when we first got together today, I did not have access to that third piece. There was no access to communication, to friends or peers. I was very isolated early on. I didn't have access to other deaf people at all in my younger years. And so for me, accessibility has got to include the social aspect and communicating with other humans that that's just key. And so when I take a look at or observe a situation or a product, I think about how all of these things intersect. If it's going to be accessible, is it accessible to self, that connection to yourself, the information and the connection to others, those three things always are in the forefront of my mind when I'm asked that question, when I approach something, Michael Hingson ** 29:33 yeah, and I think that's although a longer definition, I think it's a much more important definition than what probably most people think about when they think about accessibility and access, but I think it is all about connectionalism in so many different ways we can talk about making the internet accessible, and what does that mean? I. Ultimately, it isn't just labeling links for blind people or closed captioning for people who are deaf or hard of hearing. It is still ultimately a connectional issue, and I think there's a lot of value in looking at access that way. And I do think that we need to do more to make sure that people really get that connectivity, something that just comes to mind. I was looking at buying a vehicle last year, and I'm not going to drive it right now, the technology isn't perfected for me to be able to drive, and I don't mean an autonomous vehicle, but there are ways to transmit information so that a blind person can drive, but it's not ready for street use or anything like that yet. But by the same token, my decision about the car and what to purchase or not to purchase ultimately came down to the fact that sitting as a passenger, I reached up to turn on the radio, and there was an on off switch, and everything else was touchscreen, which meant that I could not utilize the radio, and I could use the term so it wasn't accessible. But I think it's better to say I wasn't able to connect at all with that radio. There was nothing I could do to interact with that radio in any way, because everything was touchscreen. And that is, to me, fascinating, because that means that anyone who is going to use that radio like a driver has to look at the screen in order to see where they want to touch. And doesn't that sort of make life a little bit more dangerous, because they have to take their eyes off the road to see it, rather than using knobs which they could find by touch. Stephanie Cawthon ** 31:58 I love that example, Michael, because technology is seems so advanced with a touchscreen, but really, it's not always the best fit for all the people. It's just, just because you can doesn't mean you should, right? So what a great example. Thanks. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 32:23 well, and again, it seems to me that the more fascinating aspect, in some ways, is that it still makes the driver take their eyes off the road in order to to interact. And maybe they can do that quickly and all. But still, it does mean, for some fraction of time, you have to take your eyes off the road. And the reality is, there is so much that we could do with technologies that we don't so people are just sort of skirting around the edges of doing more with voice actuation of technology in their cars. And it would be helpful, I think again, if we could do things to really encourage drivers to keep their eyes on the road and not worry about all the other stuff and give them alternatives that allow them to do that. But we, we still don't see that in the industry yet either. Stephanie Cawthon ** 33:29 Yeah, and I'm assuming that that car developer maker really didn't have a low vision person in mind as a driver or any sort of customer or consumer in that vehicle, I will imagine that they did not consider that because, potentially not the target audience. Yeah, and it was invaded, tested with the broader public. So yeah, Michael Hingson ** 33:56 that's, that's what we what we discover, but hopefully, over time, some of that will change, but it's it's a process well, so um, since we're kind of skirting around this subject, what are some of the barriers to accessibility that that you would like to share and you think People need to become more aware about Stephanie Cawthon ** 34:21 so more awareness is a key thing. Certainly, I think often people have good intentions, but they just don't know what the impact is on people with disabilities. One example is that shows up regularly. Is low expectations. Disabled people can't fill in the blank, however you'd like to say it, and so that, for me, is just on repeat. That's, that's what is a. Space of attitude, and then out there with young people in my research, in my writing, and then in my teaching of people with disabilities and working with those younger folks, they often say, dang, these low expectations. That makes it worse. Like, that's the hardest is facing low expectations. Yeah, that's great. Technology is not the hardest thing for me. Accommodations also not the hardest thing for me. The biggest thing that I find is what the young folks are telling me is these these low expectations. That is what is creating barriers to opportunities for them. And so when taking a look at the research, and it's been many, many years, I've seen a lot of research done in this area, and you can measure expectations from parents and teachers, and so then 10 years later, the outcomes from those youth are so low, if there's a negative or low expectation early on, the outcomes are very poor, and in a longitudinal study, Michael Hingson ** 36:12 yeah, well, and I think expectations, or lack of expectations, is probably the biggest thing that that we face. I mean, for years, and it still is true, the unemployment rate among employable blind people, people who are deaf or hard of hearing or who have other disabilities has been significantly, or better yet dramatically higher than the unemployment rate for employable persons who do not have What we would regard as a traditional disability, and it isn't because we can't work, it's because people think we can't work, and that, of course, is ultimately what we need to address. And hopefully, as we are able to carry on more of the conversation, we'll be able to to educate people about that. Stephanie Cawthon ** 37:02 When I think also, people assume a lot of things about what they see in someone's behavior. There are a lot of assumptions that go on. So if there's a person with a disability, specifically mental illness, or a mental health related issue that has skyrocketed now mental health issues really, really increased number of folks experiencing that, and then still others make assumptions about, oh, that person's lazy. They're just lazy, or they're unreliable, and most things are not real positive. When those assumptions come up, there is like, hey, let's give some people some credit, you know. And so I think that that type of assumption and attitude is really where, where some of this comes from is about behavior and performance on the job or at school, and if someone is not meeting what those expectations of what they should be doing, and they have a mental health issue or a disability, then I think about, well, where are these assumptions coming from? Is it about their ability? Actually? Do they need treatment? Do they need accessibility? What are the different or what kind of flexibility could they be afforded? So sometimes it's a systemic issue that that person just needs a little bit of support within that system, and it changes everything. So I think those assumptions really come into play in that space, Michael Hingson ** 38:44 yeah, and that is the, I think the biggest barrier that we have to address is the whole assumption syndrome that we tend to encounter, because people make assumptions that are absolutely not true, and oftentimes we don't even necessarily know about them, because they don't verbalize the assumptions that they have either. Stephanie Cawthon ** 39:13 Yeah, and that fear just surrounding the word disability. And so it's real interesting how that then becomes a reason for silence. Michael Hingson ** 39:30 Yeah, and so it all comes back down to the same thing, and I think you're absolutely right, and it is just something that has to be more of a growth issue. I remember, and I've talked about it a couple of times on this podcast. One time, my wife and I were going into a restaurant for breakfast where we lived in San Diego County. So with some time, probably around 1993 or 1990 Four, and my wife Karen was in a wheelchair her whole life. So as I love to tell people she read, I pushed worked out really well, but still, when we went into this restaurant, we were standing at the counter waiting to be seated. The poor hostess behind the counter had no clue how to deal with us. She kept looking at me and I'm not making eye contact, most likely with her. She looked at Karen, who's down lower, sitting in a wheelchair and all that, and this woman didn't even know how to say, Can I help you? She was just totally lost because she was confronted by a situation that just overwhelmed her with a lack of knowledge or certainty as to how to deal with it. And so finally, Karen said to me, the hostess is behind the counter, and she does know who to talk to. And so I just Well, well, you know, she should just speak up and we'll take it from there. And that finally broke the ice. But people don't learn very well, or we don't, collectively as a society, teach people very well how to deal with difference. Stephanie Cawthon ** 41:09 And I think that part is sort of what motivated my book, the new one that's going to be released soon, is it's in there. There's there's two thing and one the book itself is really just figuring out how to connect people to that, the topic of disability, that disability thing, you know, and having a to do list and a checklist is just not enough that that doesn't quite cut it. We need to know why and what's what. There's more to it, what's underneath that uncertainty or that, that frozen response. And so then also make an action plan. Let's get that list in place, and from there, how do we approach these things? So connecting our thinking, our feeling and the humanness of it with what's next? What do we do? How do I respond in that situation? We now have new information. What do we do? And so really linking those two pieces together, you know? And I see that in my students. I see that in my colleagues, if people know what to do. And so, one moment, please. And so again, that's sort of what motivated. That's my motivation for the book. So, Michael Hingson ** 42:25 so tell me a little bit more, if you would, about the National Disability Center for Student Success. What, what prompted that? What it does, and what have you learned? Stephanie Cawthon ** 42:36 All right, well, it's funded by the federal government, by the feds, and so they saw a gap in the research related to disabled students in higher education spaces, and they don't know how to support it well. And then they're like, What? What? What are the barriers to success? There's a lot of stories out there, but not a whole lot of actual research based in, you know, foundational research related to what to do and how to improve outcomes for disabled students in higher education. And so that was the motivation for the center, to create a center, a place for that research to happen and then training to also happen. And it's a five year proposal, and we've finished year one just recently, and we are now into the second year, and we'll have 234, and five years. The overarching goal is to do several things. We have some new information to collect about accessibility. Go figure, you know, you know what it looks like like. This is our framework, right? This is what we're doing. My definition that I just shared with you is, is really the framework and the jumping off point as well. And so the real interesting thing about why disabled students choose to disclose or not to disclose that disability, that is a fascinating thing, and it's about half, half of the students will disclose and half will not. So the barriers to perception. What is that like for them when you don't disclose? What do you do, right, and why? Why don't you disclose? And so all of that type of research is critical to change how we even set up accommodations. How does the system get established? What is the disclosure process look like, and it's not just a legal issue, but it's more about an institutional issue, the leadership, the culture of that space, and what that could and should look like. So that's one thing. Another thing that we focus on is really taking a look at how an institute. Institutional at an institutional level, or program level, how the policies and programs are designed for the people it's meant to serve. And so one example that says a real easy one is if a student says, I'd like to apply to that school, is the website accessible? And how do we know? How do we know about the content on the website? How do we determine, is it accessible? Let's say they apply and get in. What is orientation like? Is that accessible? How do people with disabilities experience fully, experience and on campus visit after school, or they go do an on site visit. What is that like for them? So just that kind of thing. It's real interesting getting into those specific pieces of institutional awareness and for their planning purposes and their quote brand, you know the how do they want students to experience them as and how much are they including students with disabilities in that? And later on, we'll be doing some research in terms of the outcomes and careers and job success and such like that. But that's sort of where we're at now in the center. Michael Hingson ** 46:19 Well, I would think, like most anyone who is doing research, you're, you're studying and being objective, but at the same time, having been a person with a disability your whole life, you probably have some general thoughts as to how things will turn out as you're as you're continuing to to research. But the question that I have is, have you found or have you encountered any real surprises? Have you learned something or discovered something that you thought was a certain way, and turns out it's not so you totally were, were surprised. There Stephanie Cawthon ** 47:02 was one surprise, and it's that, you know, intersectionality is important, and so and men and women are different. Big surprise there, right? But how they experience a disability also different accessibility and access, different disclosure, again, different and and then also it often depends on other oppressive type experiences or identities. So that that was a surprise. And then another surprise that I remember is that students often go to their instructors and disclose and ask for accommodations without an official letter or an official anything from any sort of university affiliated office, they will just go directly to their professor and say, Hi, I need help. I need access to XYZ. But without going through this system and getting that official piece, they sort of go the roundabout way. And so that was surprising to me as well. Why Michael Hingson ** 48:13 do you think that is that they take the roundabout approach? Stephanie Cawthon ** 48:17 I think when it's time sensitive, that's when they're like that. This is what I need. This need has shown up. It's potentially the last week of the semester. The test is today, these sort of things. And the system takes time, right? And so I believe that, yeah, and sometimes months to get these things in place. And so time sensitivity is a big one. And the feeling of safety this one instructor that they can go to. You can pick and choose when to disclose. You don't have to disclose everything right at the beginning and have something in your file that follows you. This is one professor, one time as needed, you know, and it might also be a personal relationship that they've established with that particular instructor in person now they're comfortable. The system is not personal. It is not friendly. It is a system whereas an instructor over time, that is personal. And so a feeling of safety, I think, plays into that. Michael Hingson ** 49:15 Yeah, one of the things that that I did in college was I took the initiative of going to meet the Chancellor and made an appointment to meet the chancellor of the university, and actually ended up having several conversations with him and meeting some of the other higher End school officials. And I think that was valuable to do because they got to know me as well. But I again, I think I, because of that, made it personal to use your terminology, and I think that makes a lot of sense. So with the grant that you have, what do you expect? To accomplish by the time five years have have gone Stephanie Cawthon ** 50:04 well, I'm hopeful to have some foundational research in place for some other people to take that and run with it. That's that's what I'm hoping for. In addition to that, develop a measure that is culturally sensitive to disability, and really have that developed and in place a measure of accessibility, and that's really important, because we've got students who have disability who are leading and in the process of leading, and so it's not just me, right? There are many students involved in this effort, and with this grant and center and so, and as peers, they're developing things and so getting those measures in place. Third, really is to raise awareness. You know, disability is there. There are students with disabilities on campus. That's not just an ADA issue. It's not just a legal requirement we need to satisfy. It's more of understanding the culture of the campus and that the culture of disability needs to be included when we talk about diversity and that population, you've got to include disability in that conversation. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 51:31 and I would imagine one of the main goals of the grant is to create a vehicle to help raise that awareness. Stephanie Cawthon ** 51:39 Yes, we've got 30% of our budget, so to speak, is placed for outreach specifically. So yes, we've got that allocated. Michael Hingson ** 51:53 Well, now you are writing, you mentioned it earlier, a new book. Is this your first book? Or have you written other books? I Stephanie Cawthon ** 52:00 have, I believe this is book number five for me. Wow. There you go. One of those. My first was not an academic or academia type book, but where, excuse me. This is the first book of all of them that is not academic or academia focused. This is, this is my first one, a little outside of that. So more for a general audience, the general population. Michael Hingson ** 52:29 What's the name of the new book? Stephanie Cawthon ** 52:31 Disability is human, and Michael Hingson ** 52:34 what is well, Stephanie Cawthon ** 52:36 so sorry, there's more to it, the vital power of accessibility in everyday life. Michael Hingson ** 52:49 And so what is it mainly about? Or can you tell us a little bit about it? And when will it be released? Stephanie Cawthon ** 52:54 All right, so the release date is set for September 15. So it's coming up just yesterday that was decided, and they let me know that. So that's a good thing. The book itself is really just trying to give people without disabilities an idea, a concept, an understanding, and some language about kind of navigating the world with a disability and accessibility, you know? And really, it's a it's a way to reduce the fear surrounding all of these things. I mean, that's the key point, really, from the beginning of our conversation, right? It's the fear giving options to make accessibility just a part of the design as we design life. So when people, when you think about your work, your community, your people that you interact with on a daily basis, sporting teams, you name it, it's in there, but about a group of people, and how we think about the disability part of that, the characteristics that define that or that are present there in that group. Things that you can do when a person with disabilities is involved, they typically are. What can you do? So it's a really more of that type of feel, and lots of stories in there, lots and lots of stories and anecdotes, some from me, many from other people, included in in the book. So yeah, Michael Hingson ** 54:32 who's publishing the book? T, Stephanie Cawthon ** 54:35 s, p, A, the self publishing agency, okay, it's an amazing group, perfect. And yet my four other books were all published in a traditional way. And I don't have two years to wait for this, but we don't have two years to wait for this, so that's why i. Yep, Michael Hingson ** 55:02 now you I gather, wrote a workbook to go along with the book. Tell me about the workbook, if you would Stephanie Cawthon ** 55:09 sure. So just part of my own history is interacting with teaching and teachers and teaching myself, and so I also had a theater background, and so those two things together really helped me sort of figure out how to create activities for people to interact and engage and have some more applicable information to go with it. It's so the workbook gives different options and activities of how to creatively do these things. You could do it alone. You could do it with other people. This workbook and the activity so it could be like a book club experience. It could be a training experience. You know, people maybe want it for professional development in a group setting or in an individual setting. Maybe, let's say, a person's teaching a course and they want to know what to do with their group or their class, this workbook will come in handy for that. And so that's the reason that that I even came out with a workbook. There's some assignment ideas in there. So all kinds of options for that workbook. Well, Michael Hingson ** 56:23 it sounds exciting, and I'm looking forward to learning about it. And you said it's coming out on September 15. Will there be an audio version of the book? Do you know? Yes, Stephanie Cawthon ** 56:37 those will be released separate from each other, but yes, there will be an audio version released Cool. Michael Hingson ** 56:44 Well, I want to thank you for coming and spending an hour with us today. I think it has been fun, and I have definitely enjoyed getting to have a really in depth discussion about the whole issue of disabilities and accessibility and so on. I hope that you have enjoyed it as well. So I really do appreciate you being here, and I hope that those of you listening found this to be valuable as well, and that you learned a lot from Stephanie I did. So we'd love to hear your thoughts. If you would, we'd love to hear any of you who are listening. So if you'll contact us, I would appreciate it. You can reach me at Michael H, I m, I C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, you can also go to our podcast page, which is www.michaelhingson.com/podcast Michael Hinkson, is m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n.com/podcast, and wherever you're listening, I hope, especially with this particular episode, give us a five star rating. We value that very highly. And for all of you listening, and Stephanie you as well. If you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we would really value highly you letting us know or introducing us, because we're always looking for people who want to come on and help us all recognize that we're more unstoppable than we think we are. So with that, again, I want to thank you for being here. I have enjoyed it, and it's been a pleasure to have you on today. Thank you Stephanie Cawthon ** 58:21 well. Thank you so much. Michael Hingson ** 58:27 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.