Herding Code 242: The COVID Cabin Fever

Herding Code

Does time still exist? Maybe! Kevin, Rob, and Jon chat about some of the top concerns of our current time:

• Sourdough bread
• WordPress and PHP
• No Code development
• Knock knock jokes

Download / Listen: Herding Code 242: The COVID Cabin Fever

https://herdingcode.com/wp-content/uploads/HerdingCode-242-Sourdough-and-PHP-and-No-Code-Dev-and-Knock-Knock-Jokes.mp3

Links:

• https://github.com/nushell/nushell
• https://jeffsternberg.com/2020/03/11/beyond-spreadsheets/

Transcript:

Jon: [00:00:07] And hello, welcome to Herding Code. It is July 31, 2020 on the one hand. Holy cow. The year is like getting closer to done on the other hand. Will this year ever end?

Rob: [00:00:20] Yeah, can the year just be over? Can we just be done?

Jon: [00:00:25] Wow. Yes, it is.

Rob: [00:00:29] I think I mentioned before the podcast that wasn’t going to be salty. I think I lied.

Jon: [00:00:33] Yeah.

Kevin: [00:00:34] This is the bad place. The year will never end.

Jon: [00:00:37] You know, on the one hand. So it was looking at it with since April, we talked last and we did the, Freaky Friday episode where we talked about the trading trading placces, Mac and Windows and all that. And then I was like, man, on the one hand has much changed. I mean, cause cause it’s like nerds in captivity.

What do we do?

Kevin: [00:00:57] It’s not actually that different from nerds, not in captivity, sadly.

Jon: [00:01:00] That’s true. That’s true. All right. Has anyone else, w we just, we have to cross this off the list who here has made a loaf of sourdough bread. Okay. I’ve made enough for everybody. I’ve made all the sourdough bread.

Rob: [00:01:12] We just…

Kevin: [00:01:13] ship it out, man. Send us some!

Rob: [00:01:15] Yeah, I know. Wait, where’s my, where’s my bread, man.

Jon: [00:01:18] Okay. So it was like after a while, I have three daughters and they’re getting bored too. And so the middle one kind of gets into baking. So I was like, all right, let’s try it out. You know? And then it’s totally the nerd rabbit hole. Once you start it, then you’re like, Oh, I really need a Dutch oven now. And now, now I need this, but it’s pretty fun.

I halfway through, I really there’s this website Breadtopia, and there’s this no knead bread recipe. And it’s actually like, most of the work like you do, maybe about a half hour of work, but it’s spread over two days. So you could like go mix ingredients, you walk away for hours and then you come back and you’d like, flip it around and then you come back and then you put it in the oven and you walk away.

So it’s a lot of walkaway comeback stuff. But the one thing I realized after a while is that. It was not very sour. And then I started reading and there was all these hacks you could do, but then people are like, you know, sourdough, you buy from the store has some sort of acid in it, citric acid or lactic acid, some sort of acid.

So I just started putting white wine vinegar in, and then I had to like, it messed with the chemistry and I had to change around the ingredients and stuff, but that totally worked. Then everyone’s like, this is the best ever. So don’t tell my family, I’m putting. White wine vinegar in the sourdough and we’re all good.

Rob: [00:02:35] Yeah. You know, it reminds me of making, cause you know bread and beer are very similar and yeah. And so I used to be a huge, I haven’t brewed beer in a very long time, but I remember going to the store and they’re like, well, you know, if you, if you can’t get that bitterness, you’re looking for here’s some extract, you know, or if you can’t get the aroma here, just drop a few drops of this.

It’s you know, I like, wait, that’s, that’s cheating.

Jon: [00:03:00] It’s totally cheating. And yet,

Rob: [00:03:04] Yeah. And yet, right. If the beer tastes good and people drink it and they like it. So who cares? I don’t

Jon: [00:03:09] that reminds me in a Malcolm Gladwell book. I forget what it was, but it was. One of these things where they’re like, they did these taste tests and they had some kind of beer taste test and they put in, basalmic vinegar into some of them. And people like picked the basalmic vinegar is like much better beer and it like just had a few vinegar in it.

So I don’t even know. Yeah.

Kevin: [00:03:33] the most like San Francisco story, I heard. Through this COVID period is some, some dude was like going all over San Francisco, leaving sourdough starter packets, like randomly scattered around the city.

Jon: [00:03:48] It’s pretty amazing stuff. It’s like, I’ve, I’ve seen videos. People take like completely like abandoned cultures that have been in the back of their refrigerator for months, you know, and they’ll awaken it. And it’s like, I don’t even know. Yeah.

Kevin: [00:04:04] Our version of it is we got an ice cream maker, which is even less healthy than making your own so we’ve been kind of experimenting a little bit, although we haven’t gotten too crazy yet. So.

Jon: [00:04:15] So I ran into Nik Molnar in the, before times in Montreal, I was at Node. What was it? Node JS Interactive up there. And, and I forgot that he is like, Crazy like trained chef, like really good. And so I was like, Oh yeah, I’m cooking some stuff for Christmas. He’s like, you know, I told him and it was something like just simple thing, you know?

And he was like visibly disappointed. Okay. And I’m like, what are you doing? He’s like, yeah, I’m just making ice cream. But he had like three different ice creams in each one had like a savory and a sweet component. And I mean, he had like, obviously planned out this very in depth stuff. And I was like, well, I’m sorry. But ice cream ice cream is

Rob: [00:05:00] I, I had a really fun experience. I mean, I know this podcast is supposed to be back technical stuff and we’re supposed to get into it, but you know what? This is, this is the human aspect of it. But you know, what, if someone can gain some value from this hooray, So my buddy, my buddy and I we’re going, gonna make some burgers one night.

And I said, well, you know, I’ve always wanted to make a burger on a skillet and he’s got a really good set of skillets, you know, like, Black, you know, just super cured over the last million years. And I’m like, I’m going to make a burger on that. And so I go online and I’m like, I’m going to look at the perfect burger tutorial.

Like, how do you make it? And of course, I find my favorite chef Gordon Ramsey, and he’s got this YouTube video called the perfect burger tutorial. And so I watched it and amazingly for the burger fans out there, he did not make it in a skillet. He made it on a barbecue. And anyway, the reason I’m saying all this is I, I kind of watched this whole thing, what he was doing and the ingredients to use.

And so I’m like, alright, I’m going to take myself to the store and I’m going to buy this beef. I’m going to put an egg in it. Cause he recommends putting an egg in like a, what is it? Two pounds of beef. And then I’m going to like get this cheese and do all the things he did, salt and pepper. That’s all he uses for, for seasoning.

And they did exactly what he recommends doing. And I, I’m not kidding. My friend made this buddy of this guy was making a burger with, he is a huge meat fan. He’s got like a $2,500 smoker. He spends, I mean, hours and hours, ma like making meat every single week seriously. And so I was like, listen, I’m going to make, I’m going to try and make this burger.

I’m just going to go get some stuff from our local market. And don’t beat me up. I’m going to do my best. And he’s like, all right, you know, whatever, you know, little lamb go have a good time. So I did. And he swears to me and it’s the best burger he’s ever had in his life. And I was just like, I was, the funny part is I’m not, I don’t, I’m not big burger person.

You know what I mean? I somehow just stumbled into this. Anyway, I left you a link here in chat. So if you want to put it on the post. It’s it’s literally took me, I want to say 30 minutes from start to finish. And my kid has said this to me, best burger I’ve ever had in my life. My buddy said this to me.

I’m like really? Cause that’s a pretty big thing for someone to say that. So anyway, I thought, since we’re talking about food, I made a damn good hamburger, you know, and I’m proud of myself.

Jon: [00:07:29] Well done. It is funny how much, like a lot of these things come down to really simple. Like the bread that I made is like, Three ingredients, you know, and then last week we made mozzarella and it’s four ingredients. And a lot of it is like doing the process and, and YouTube, it’s hard to beat YouTube, you know, like I’ve used.

Rob: [00:07:51] I was going to say, right when it’s Gordon Ramsay, I mean, he kind of just stares at you through the thing and he’s like, if you make a burger any other way, I will come find you and kill you.

Jon: [00:08:02] True. True. Yeah. I mean, I’ve used, I mean, it’s, it’s, you know, cliche at this point, but I used YouTube recently to repair, you know, leaking gaskets and in my espresso machines, you use it for fixing dishwashers and everything. So why not cooking too, but it really does make a difference as long as it’s not the long boring, you know,

Rob: [00:08:24] Yup.

Jon: [00:08:25] People want to talk a little too much? Just get to the point.

Rob: [00:08:29] Speaking of this is supposed to be a tech podcast, right? I mean,

Jon: [00:08:35] Oh, I guess so

Rob: [00:08:36] I know.

Jon: [00:08:37] what’s happened. Well, okay. Kevin did point out there’s been, there was a Mac, there was an Apple event, an Apple developer event. What do we call them now? WWDC is. There was a thing.

Rob: [00:08:56] Oh, Jon.

Kevin: [00:08:57] This is the guy who’s on the Visual Studio for Mac team, right.

Rob: [00:09:00] Yeah.

Jon: [00:09:01] Yeah. Well, I watched it,

Rob: [00:09:04] There was a Mac thing.

Jon: [00:09:06] I watched it, I didn’t get the tattoo… So now we got to do stuff for ARM. We got to do some ARM stuff, so that’s

Rob: [00:09:16] like arm templates, like Azure templates as your resource minute.

Jon: [00:09:21] ARM chips. Yeah. a thing now.

Kevin: [00:09:25] Silicon, Jon,

Jon: [00:09:26] Oh, that’s right. That’s

Rob: [00:09:27] Yeah, no, I was just

Kevin: [00:09:30] excited for this?

Jon: [00:09:32] Yeah. I who me?

Rob: [00:09:34] no,

Jon: [00:09:35] Everyone’s excited. I guess it’s better battery life, right? That’s a good thing.

Kevin: [00:09:41] Yeah, we don’t know that. That’s the big question. We don’t know what it means aside from the fact that it’s going to be screaming fast.

Jon: [00:09:48] True. So, so there there’s been a windows windows on arm thing for a while, but you know, I kind of generally follow along, but I don’t know how much stuff works on it. And people are like, you know, getting things, working on it, with, with the Mac, the Apple Silicon, they have Rosetta, which kind of does some cross compiling thing, which seems pretty smart.

so that I do know from the. Vs Mac team. That’s the at least original plan is like, make sure everything works with that. Right. So you have to get the dev kit, which is basically a Mac mini and, you know, with the new Silicon and you test on that. But, yeah,

Rob: [00:10:28] you

Kevin: [00:10:28] I wouldn’t, I would ask you if you guys are using those, but I don’t think you’re allowed to say so.

Jon: [00:10:33] using the Mac minis or the D

Kevin: [00:10:35] the dev kits, the

Jon: [00:10:37] So I’m personally, I’m not on the, I’m not an engineer, so I’m, I’m not, I don’t have one. Maybe I could talk someone into getting me one at one point at some point, but they’re like, I think they’re about a thousand bucks.

Kevin: [00:10:50] No, the 500 bucks,

Jon: [00:10:52] Alright. Yeah. I’ll

Kevin: [00:10:53] you don’t get to keep it. You gotta send it back.

Jon: [00:10:55] Oh, that sucks.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rob: [00:10:58] know, I was just telling, for those out there listening, I was just telling Kevin and Jon that right now, my computer hasn’t slept. actually like, you know, when he closed the lid, like your computer goes to sleep. I use a Mac book pro 16 inch. My computer hasn’t slept in two weeks, because where every time we would try and wait for him sleep, it would kernel panic and it’s akin to the blue screen of death in windows.

And I kind of got tired of, I need to force reboot my machine every time I opened the damn lid. So right. Come to find out this is a deal. It’s a software glitch as opposed to a hardware one, which is good. And so there’s good news and bad news here. You know, the good news is Apple engineering is pretty good about dealing with things.

The bad news is sometimes it takes a while for the update to roll out. And so, as I was preparing to go ahead

Jon: [00:11:45] Is it a, is it which year Macbook is it?

Rob: [00:11:49] last year it was brand new.

Jon: [00:11:51] Cause I got a 16, 2019 and I’m running Catalina,

Rob: [00:11:56] Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know what the deal is. It apparently, apparently just kind of affects certain machines somewhere. But anyway, I just checked, as I was sitting here preparing, like to tell you all this story, I would look at the software update in the Control Yeah. You know, going through this like, Oh, this update, you know, includes bug fixes, whatever.

So this is the 10.15.6 Update. And one of their bullet points is. That it fixes an issue where the computer name may change after installing a software update. I’m like, okay, I’m sorry, what year is this? What do we do at what? How is this possibly a bug? How are you going to change the name of my machine?

No. Can you fix, can you just fix the thing where my machine will fricking blue screen? Oh my God. Anyway, computers, I don’t know. I don’t know what’s going on. Kevin help. What’s happening.

Kevin: [00:12:50] I don’t know, I’d be pretty pissed to that one. Is it, is it like you, because you’re plugged into an external monitor or you’re like have some weird peripherals or.

Rob: [00:13:00] I have a feeling it’s probably like a configuration that got going, which is yes, I have two external monitors and it’s probably trying to reconcile something. And I was reading something on the forums where they’re like, Oh, it’s a threading issue. And there’s a race condition deep inside the GPU, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You know, it makes sense, I guess. Right. Cause. Computers are hard and then concurrency is triple hard. And so, right. So you

Jon: [00:13:22] Yeah, but concurrency shouldn’t rename your computer.

Rob: [00:13:27] is what I know. Like

Jon: [00:13:31] If something’s renaming your computer, I guarantee it we’re being renamed to the developer who worked on the bug fix.

Rob: [00:13:40] Yeah, not to beat up on Apple team. I mean, they deserve to be beat up on it. I don’t want to stand here and defend, but at the same time, Two weeks ago, I got this notice on my Windows machine. It says this build of windows is going to expire on July 31st. And I’m like, what can my operating system literally expire like near to this?

Jon: [00:14:01] It goes bad, like, like cheese or eggs.

Rob: [00:14:03] yeah. Like, like, like what does that mean? Expire and it’s. So I had to ping some people internally, right. And like, Hey, so if I get this message. It’s like, well, click on more info. What does it tell you? And so I click on more info and it leads me to a 404 page, like, Oh, okay.

Jon: [00:14:23] So my solution to this is always run the latest of everything,

Rob: [00:14:27] Oh, I tried it. So the funny thing is, and this is the best part of the whole story. So internally we have, you know, we have tech support and I.T. And whatever. So I like pinging these people and it’s amazing the level of support we have internal, which is lovely. And so I pinged a person over teams and I said, here’s the problem?

And they said, do you mind if I come in and take a look at your machine? And I said, of course, you know, so he, we start sharing screens, right? He comes in and starts going to the control panel and like, Oh no, you’re not. He goes to control panel and then, you know, windows update and like, don’t please don’t do that.

Cause I had just checked windows update. Right. I literally just checked the updater and there was nothing there. He goes in there and he checks the update and sure enough, there’s an update. And he said, what do you think if we apply this update and restart your machine. And then of course that that’s solved the entire problem

Jon: [00:15:18] fixed it. Good.

Kevin: [00:15:20] Well, so Rob, you just have to go get a job at Apple, get them to fix your Mac.

Rob: [00:15:24] I know, right.

Jon: [00:15:25] You can work at the Genius Bar.

Rob: [00:15:28] Oh my goodness. I am sorry. It’s a Friday. It’s like end of a long week. I’m a little bit fried and loopy. Yeah. Anyway.

Kevin: [00:15:37] I will say I have a, sorry. I was just say I have an older 15 inch MacBook pro and if there’s one thing that will kill it, it’s not, doesn’t happen all the time. But if there’s one thing that will kill it, it’s. Unplugging it from the external monitor, like, like 90% of the time when I, if it’s going to, if it’s going to die.

That’s what does it,

Rob: [00:15:55] Yeah, I think what is happening? Like, is it just like an energy loss or are there like little gremlins running around like, Oh my God, you know, like we have to wait for them to come back, you know, no gremlin left behind, what are you doing in there?

Jon: [00:16:05] I swear video, the three things that all computers are terrible about video drivers printing. And I feel like USB hubs too. Like in general, like especially windows, my, my desktop machine. I’ve got like a few hubs. I have a thousand USB devices and windows does not like that.

Rob: [00:16:24] Wait, Jon,

Jon: [00:16:26] yes.

Rob: [00:16:26] still there,Jon. I think you’re on mute. I can’t hear you. I can’t, I can’t hear you. I’m sorry. What?

Jon: [00:16:33] I see a video monitor. It shows wave forms. I can tell you’re messing with me. Yeah. But seriously, like printers printers are still bad. I have a printer and you can. You can email to it. Like I don’t print, right. Cause I’m, you know, a nerd, but like my family wants to print things apparently. And like, I got this printer, an HP, you can at least email.

So I have a, an email address, which I’m tempted to say on the phone and people could be on the call and people could email my printer, but it is, it’s pretty neat, but everyone’s like, I don’t want to do that. You know?

Rob: [00:17:09] that’s like the 20, 20 version of a fax. Like I’ll just email you this document that your

Jon: [00:17:13] It’s true, but it is a good way to get people off my back. They’re like I have a report due. I can’t do it. I’m like just email it to the printer, like, okay. You

Rob: [00:17:22] Yeah, just email it to the printers. Then you just fax me. Oh my God. We’ve come so far. So far.

Jon: [00:17:31] And video devices. Let me tell you about video devices. Cause we’ve been doing stuff with like, because of the remote thing and my team, you know, working with community .NET things and we have this community standup show we do. And so we’re using OBS, but OBS is complicated. And then we have more and more shows splitting off from more and more people hosting, but we not, all of them have fancy computers and fast internet and know how to use OBS and stuff.

So, so then we’ve been messing with other things on top of that and we set up a virtual machine with, so that’s pretty crazy. We set up an Azure virtual machine and they have a VM SKU? They have a VM that you can get that has Nvidia like access to the Nvidia GPU. And for some reason they have like promotional pricing.

So it’s not very expensive. It’s like a buck an hour. and then you can hook it up. So that OBS is using the GPU and it’s like GPU accelerated, super nice and stuff, and actually works. But it’s, then it’s still like a. You need to go, you need to control access to this virtual machine and you have to like log in and apply updates and crap.

So we finally like we’ve settled on using some like services for that lately. We’ve been using StreamYard and Restream, and they have kind of like a web based based thing where you can kind of like we’re using Zencaster now for like, you know, you call into and it’s all on a webpage Restream and StreamYard are both very similar, but it’s like, You, your webcam shows up your, your microphone, your audio, like just are connected to it.

And it’s all like in a webpage and then you just click and you’d like add and remove people from the live feed and stuff. So,

Rob: [00:19:19] Yeah. You know, thing is I’ve, I’ve crawled really deeply into all of this stuff. I mean, I won’t say that I know anything about ops, sorry. Oh BS. But, so no, it’s one of the cool things that I started to do here at Microsoft is I’m working on the LearnTV backend. so I’m, I’m actually leading the engineering on that.

It’s really fun. I can’t believe. Yeah, I know. They asked me to do it. I’m like what you serious? Okay, sure.

Jon: [00:19:46] What does that mean? What is, what is this thing?

Rob: [00:19:50] LearnTV. Well, you know,

Jon: [00:19:53] well, I’m partly, I’m, I’m asking for, I’m pretending to be dumb, but I’m

Rob: [00:19:57] You giving me a toss here? That’s what the,

I’m

Jon: [00:20:00] the ideal dumb guy, because I actually I’m dumb.

Rob: [00:20:03] okay. No, so no LearnTV is a, it’s just the broadcasting from, from, Microsoft. And it’s kind of funny, you know, I feel like there’s still exploration happening. What are you trying to do with it? And I’m not going to try and be the spokesman for it. Yeah.

Cause they could probably get fired. However, the idea so far is like, you know, a friend, a friend of mine that I worked with here, I’m working on it. He said, I love to listen to Twitch just over my shoulder and it’s always running. And if I hear something interesting, I’ll stop what I’m doing and listen.

And so I tried to explain to a friend of mine that way, just the other day. And I said, you know, he listened to NPR or someone listened to music or whatever. You get tired of music, you turn on something else. And to have something just running in the background, That pertains to what you’re doing every single day.

it’s kinda neat, you know, you just kinda hear tidbits of things. And, and so anyway, LearnTV is, is sorta trying to be that and a little bit more. And so, they’re trying to bang it into shape, but for right now, we’re trying to do the next rev of it. So they’ve asked me to step in and help out. So I am, and it’s kind of fun to step into the streaming world because wow.

Right. Wow. There’s so much happening out there. And, and to dig into all these things and I, I’m not even gonna pretend I know what’s going on. The person I’m working with, Eric st. Martin. He is, he is. He’s amazing. He, he. I guess built the Comcast, switcher, like for Comcast.

So yeah, like he designed and implemented it. Yeah. I know. It’s crazy when you work in like places like Microsoft or wherever, you know, like these big tech companies and you talk to the people you work with and they’re like, Oh yeah, you know, I.

Jon: [00:21:35] Yeah. I wrote that spec.

Rob: [00:21:37] I created Kubernetes. Yeah. I mean, that happened to me at build.

That happened to me, a build when someone said, Hey, you should have this person come talk about Kubernetes and like, well, who is he? And they’re like, well, he’s the guy that made it. I’m like, well, I mean, is he cool? Like hanging out at a Microsoft thing? And they’re like, dude, dude, he works. He works for us like, Oh, Oh,

Jon: [00:21:57] I know he spoke yesterday at, they did the .NET Conf Focus on Microservices and his talk was like super, I mean, it was just really low, key and fun. I mean, I guess he’s probably spoken about microservices more than once, but his talk was just, it was like, it was just fun, you know?

Yeah.

Rob: [00:22:18] Yeah, no, it’s fun. And I don’t mean to sit here and gloat about all this stuff. It’s just to me, I’m like a kid in a candy shop. It’s really fun. So.

Jon: [00:22:26] Well, that’s

Rob: [00:22:27] blah, blah.

Jon: [00:22:28] So, so, yeah, the, the engineering for that’s gotta be pretty interesting. Huh?

Rob: [00:22:32] Yeah. Well, he does all the streaming stuff in the back end and I have no idea what’s going on with that. I’m more involved with other aspects of it, but, he’ll, he’ll tell me, like, he’ll pop into Slack and he’d be like, Hey, you know, here’s what we’re going to do. And, or here’s what I’m thinking of doing.

And I’m like, sure, whatever you think, man. That’s great. For those of you wondering, I just really want to quickly say this. we have clearance to do this open source, so we are going to make it open. And I’m not sure if I’m supposed to say that I might get in trouble for it, but well, that’s what we’re going to do.

Jon: [00:23:07] Awesome. It’s too bad. This isn’t live streamed itself. You could get fired, live on the podcast.

Rob: [00:23:14] Yes. That would probably be the feather in my cap that I need.

Jon: [00:23:20] Yeah, it’s pretty interesting. The whole like live and definitely this year with the. Remote staff, you know, I, some of my experience with this, I work with, with Hank Pullman on, work kind of behind the scenes, helping with the producing for Juneteenth cough. So we just, and it was really cool. Like we use streaming yard for it and it was like, just, you know, we’re the backend producer is Mike check people.

Okay. You’re set to go and boom and streaming harvest, like after having done OB acids. Great. But it’s definitely the. It’s like Photoshop level, there’s a million knobs and switches and you can, you can do that. Anything you want with it, but you it’s, it’s not, it’s, there’s a lot of like touch that button and the whole broadcast ends

Rob: [00:24:05] Yeah. If someone described it to me as the PHP of online broadcasting

Jon: [00:24:12] They’re like, you can do anything with it. It powers it’s everywhere and it’s, it works, but it’s yeah. So, and then it’s, it’s pretty cool seeing these services that kind of automate, you know. Yeah.

Rob: [00:24:26] Sorry. No, I just have to caveat that with this is something I heard Microsofts and official stance is not that it was just something I heard online and someone was talking about

Jon: [00:24:36] It’s and it’s, it’s also one of those things where probably like PHP, once you’ve learned it, it’s, it’s kind of a sunk cost Stockholm syndrome thing, but it’s like, now you like it. Cause you’ve put in all the work to learn it, you know? So

Rob: [00:24:50] and the fascinating thing about it is like PHP. And PHB applications. Like if you need to get streaming and online fast, boom, you’re up. You know what I mean? You’re like,

Jon: [00:24:59] Yep.

Rob: [00:25:00] anyway, Kevin, I’m sorry. You’re gonna say something.

Kevin: [00:25:01] I’m not sure I’ve ever heard it’s the PHP have ever intended as a compliment, however,

Jon: [00:25:09] But PHP is still all over the place on the web, you know, I mean, it’s, it powers a lot of forums powers, WordPress

Rob: [00:25:16] Well,

Jon: [00:25:16] Herding

Rob: [00:25:16] though. If you want to, if you want to get up and running and doing something quickly, I mean, there, there really is no alternative to PHP based applications. I mean, that’s my argument.

Jon: [00:25:28] Although get hub pages is pretty close.

Rob: [00:25:32] It’s getting there. That’s for sure.

Jon: [00:25:35] It’s interesting to seem. They’re kind of, you know, scooping things together now, like with, I don’t know, I mean, there’s get hub pages and there’s get hub actions and stuff like that. You really could cobble a lot of things together. I mean, I feel like that’s kind of something I’m seeing too lately is like the many platforms kind of bundled together.

I don’t know, partly I’m thinking about this because like, With work stuff. I, so I was mentioning, we do this is peanut community stand up. And then we’ve also helped with .NET foundation where you’re like, Hey, you guys have a bunch of meetups running around the world and if you want to livestream, here’s how, here’s the stuff we did.

You know, we can kind of share it over to you and you can, you know, run your meetups as live streams worldwide. You know, and all this stuff, there’s also like a good amount of it, admin, where it’s like, okay, someone needs a schedule show. That means you need to notify someone. That means you need to create a stream and you need to put it in, meetup and you know, all these steps and stuff.

So we’ve on our team. Been automating some things using Power Automate. It used to be called Microsoft Flow. And it’s a lot of, kind of plugging stuff together. So it’s like when you fill in a form, it adds a row into SharePoint and then it sends an email and then it puts a planner task and it assigns it to a person.

And then if the task is overdue, it sends in it, you know, and like all this stuff kind of like these blocks that you hook together. And before, before we started, you know, the podcast, Kevin was reminding me, that’s basically Yahoo pipes. so,

Rob: [00:27:11] Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. That’s the problem.

Jon: [00:27:16] but, but you really can do quite a bit, you know, the whole kind of no code thing. And there’s always, you know, like the, If This Then That (IFTTT), and there’s the, you know, like it is, it is interesting to be able to share, you know, and, and I feel like if you’re doing a bunch of stuff, hooking a bunch of. Like Microsoft officey sorta things together. This is better than a bunch of like power shell scripts, or I don’t know how else you’d do it, you know, just to kind of hook things together.

Rob: [00:27:46] is, you know, I was just having a big argument, not argument, but like a, a back and forth is the best way to put it with a friend of mine. About, about all of these things. Like, no. I’m not going to give away the context because it doesn’t really matter, but there are just like the, you know, this is like the best part of computing, you know, we can do serverless, we can do these Lambdas.

We can do, you know, like pushing like Netflix, talking about Netflix and pushing the JAMstack stuff and like, it’s great. I mean, I do agree. It’s great. And Kevin, I don’t know if you’re going to disagree with me on any of this or maybe you won’t, but there’s like, there’s. You get to a point where you’re like, ah, you know, I, the only the analogy I can come up with is like, wow, that ocean is beautiful.

I’m going to go swim in it. And then you get in and you realize that just under the surface is like this load of coral, not coral, but like a kelp. Right. And it’s like, you just wrapped around and kelp and you’re like, I can’t move. much stuff happening. And you know, and I’m like, Oh, and I just kind of went through this with a project I was working on like, wait, where’s that function and what is it doing?

Oh, well we have to upgrade the node version on that one. Cause that one’s going to expire, but these other ones. Okay. You know, like, Oh, God kills me.

Jon: [00:29:01] Yup. Well, and so this is kind of more the, like, as a service sort of thing, like it’s, it’s a more serverless applied to the serverless sort of idea, applied to business process automation, things, you know, that’s like.

Kevin: [00:29:17] Yeah, this is, this has been sort of a fascinating trend for me, cause like coming out of college, you know, 1,001 years ago, I, the first company I worked for was a, what was then known as BPM business process management company, which was essentially a no code, low code development platform, right?

So it was a graphical workflow model or where you would, you know, drag these blocks and connect them. And you could, you know, make decisions that kind of like model a data flow. And there were queues where people could connect and find work. And so like, you know, this, this is literally like old hat to me.

and then, you know, we had yellow pipes, which is sort of a very early version of that kind of thing. And then it all kind of, I don’t know, I don’t want to say it went backward, but it kind of went simpler with the, like, If This Then That (IFTTT) Zapier stuff where it was really literally like a, it was almost like a top to bottom script, but you were very limited in the flexibility.

And now, you know, now there’s this sort of Renaissance, not everybody would agree. It’s a Renaissance, but you know, this kind of, if you look at the like companies that are being funded startup, the company is being funded. There’s been this whole raft of these no code, low code platforms, which are basically like, you know, sort of graphical, you know, business application builders, where you can model workflows by connecting services together in a graphical way.

So, I mean, it’s one of those things where like, I’ve been kind of eyeing this space. I haven’t really looked that much yet the current offerings out there, but I’ve kind of always kept an eye on that because of my original background. And, you know, there there’s always. Have been problems with this kind of approach.

Right. You know, eventually things get so complicated and then you, you know, you don’t have

Jon: [00:31:05] how did they grow up?

Kevin: [00:31:06] diff and like, it’s, you do tend to hit some complexity walls. But, it is, I think it is an interesting space. And, you know, when you pile on like serverless stuff where you can like, basically run these applications for extremely cheaply on somebody else’s infrastructure, it’s, it’s an interesting thing.

And, you know, It’s there’s always been this sort of like, you know, there’s, there’s kind of like the Excel world, right. Where like, you know, which is, you know, programming for non-programmers basically. and then there’s yeah. Coding world. And this is in between, and it’s never, it’s, it’s always kind of struggled to like break through.

I feel like, like it doesn’t, it doesn’t break through all the way to the, to the. People who aren’t really coders. and, and you have the coders sort of looked down on it. So it has always been stuck in this little bit of a Valley, I feel like, but it’ll be interesting to see whether this iteration of it, you know, gets any legs.

Jon: [00:32:02] It’s a, you know, that whole kind of like the problem with a lot of this, like you’re saying, is it doesn’t, it’s not a smooth continuum. It’s kinda like you can work with, you know, Excel or you can work with like a block Walkley style programming, you get to a certain point and then it just gets like horrendous and then you basically have to rewrite to move. To something better, you know, or, I mean, in the past there was also an access, right. You know, or whatever, there’s these things where these businesses are, man, I worked on a project long time ago and it was moving basically moving a union union software. And so it was like, you know, relatively big schools and, you know, all kinds of government institutions and healthcare and they, and they were running there.

Ops and HR systems on Excel. And we moved them into a system that was managed. It was based on an open source HR system. and it horrendous because I wrote a lot of the data import stuff and it was these ridiculous SQL scripts, you know, to like, and, and I remember one, there was one thing where it was like, things were keyed on unique kid on first name, last name.

And so then everyone had multiple rows in this table and they just added ones and twos. And three is to the last names I had to de dupe all these, you know, like that kind of stuff. But, but, you know, I guess, I guess what you’re pointing out, Kevin is the whole, like, if there’s a way to move more smoothly between these worlds, that would be nice.

And one, one thing, actually that I saw on this just last night, Gene Kim shared this, a tweet is a blog post from Jeff Sternberg. And he’s talking about his he’s recommending that instead of using spreadsheets, like Excel to use Jupiter notebooks or something like it. And, and, you know, he talks about like, here’s all the limitations you run into when you run a business on Excel and something like Jupiter notebooks.

Can grow up better than that. I don’t know if Jupiter notebooks, I don’t feel like Jupiter notebooks is friendly or simple enough that to somebody that, you know what I mean, like a small business can jump into Excel and just start getting stuff done in a way that you can’t with Jupiter notebooks, but maybe that’s like the start of an idea, you know? like for instance, Google sheets too, like whatever, you know, how do you, how do you make Google sheets? Like show as code and move and go to the next thing, you know, I’m trying to think there have, it seems like there’ve been some things that do that better where you can, you can start, you can go to a certain level with the kind of easy, easy mode, and then you can say, show me my code and now I’ll extend it and change it over. And any thoughts? Now it’s, it’s a, it’s

Kevin: [00:35:08] I’m not thinking of it, but I mean, I know what you’re, I understand the concept of like, you know, like you need to get when you need to take it to the next level of sophistication. Like how do you do that without having to throw it away and start over physically?

Jon: [00:35:21] yeah, yeah.

Kevin: [00:35:22] And yeah, I think that, I definitely think there’s a there’s possibilities there.

I’m just not sure anybody’s cracked that. Not yet.

Rob: [00:35:30] I dunno, I just was having a really fun discussion with a friend of mine about WordPress. And so here’s my situation, right? So I’ve got literally 45 videos all based on imposter handbook stuff and interviewing and just blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And, you know, these are some high value videos, at least to me.

And I think people can find value in these videos. And so my problem is I need a way to get these videos in front of people, you know? And so, you know, then, then your brain starts to explode. It’s like, what can you do? Right. And so I’ve gone all over the place. I’ve, I’ve checked out learning management platforms.

I’ve. You don’t like podia and teachable and I mean, you name it. I’ve gone there. Kajabi is another one I looked at. I mean, all of these are really, really cool. And you know, the whole time I’m trying to focus on what, what is it I’m trying to do? What’s the business angle here. What’s the payoff. And eventually, like, I always come down to like, like my thing is I want least friction between the person.

And the video. Right. And, and for some, I want to charge money because some of them are like five hours long. Right. So I charged for it, but I want to make it, I want to make it like, they feel good about it. And it’s just not like me being cheesy and whatever. And I just want to make it feel like a really good experience.

And so eventually I come down to the technology angle, what am I going to use? And then that’s where just everything explodes. You know, cause you roll your own. Right? And then we’re having these discussions, right? So, you know, you got to know analytics, you got to know all this other crap. You gotta know so many things about what’s happening.

How are you going to charge this person? How are you going to makes them feel like they didn’t get gypped off? You know, you want to send them an email based on their purchases and communicate with him. And it’s easy to see why. So when just goes with WordPress, because like with the installation, if you plugins you’re off and running.

A year from now, on the other hand, you know, you’re going to be pulling your hair out because things are broken and not working. So I don’t know. I think about this every time I have a discussion with somebody about, you know, technology and functionality, what should we do? Which even comes back to the discussions I’m having now internally about what we’re going to do with learning TV.

We’re not going to use WordPress by the way, but you know, But seriously, like I did post this to somebody on the team. Like if we just had a WordPress site where we could post videos every hour, talk to me, like literally a curl script, like you’re just going to post and redirect post redirect, talk to me about what’s better than that, you know?

And like, I think that level of grounding, and again, I know people out there are going to be like, Oh my God, Connor is an absolute idiot. However, however, like. I feel like WordPress has one great use in this world, which is to be the touchstone experience in terms of what people out in the internet, you know, or out in the world expect from technology, because they have managed to capture that, you know what I’m saying?

Like a business person or whomever has an idea. They can implement it in WordPress, probably within, I would say within a week and probably within three to five days. Or last three to five hours, if it’s simple enough,

Jon: [00:38:54] It’s like the Excel, it’s the Excel of the web, you know? I mean, like,

Kevin: [00:38:58] totally is.

Jon: [00:39:00] and, and some of the things like I’ve, I’ve kept and it’s been partly an experience just cause I want to learn and understand it, but we’ve had the Herding Code website running on WordPress since the beginning. And. Aside from the fact that PHP is a fascinating platform when you get hacked, because you can override things at some really interesting levels. Mmm But, but they have done a pretty good job with some things. One thing they continued to improve the upgrade. experience. So now it auto updates and it auto updates with like security features in a pretty good way. The, the extension model I feel like is pretty good. Like there’s some pretty good hooks.

And I wrote an extension. There was a problem where Feedburner could only like Feedburner would only accept a certain number of. A certain feed size and then it would just choke. And so I went in and modify it. I wrote an extension or WordPress, add an extension, whatever. Yeah. Call it. That would for the, the latest, like 50 posts, it would grab the entire thing.

And then for the, all the other ones in the history, I would just grab a truncated. You know, like truncate I’m at a hundred words or something. and I mean, it was like, it took a little time to like understand the model, but then I was like, Oh, this second actually pretty elegant, you know, it’s and they have a pretty good system for like versioning and marking, extensions, being tested with.

Certain updates, PHP itself, like is not a beautiful language to me, but like it’s, you’re not, you’re not writing PHP when you’re developing WordPress, you know?

Rob: [00:40:42] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, I feel like we’ve probably tuned, made a lot of people tune

Jon: [00:40:47] yeah.

Rob: [00:40:49] There’s a WordPress again.

Jon: [00:40:51] You know, Rob, when you’re doing, you’re talking about like WordPress that you’ve done, is it mostly just configuring sites or are you like extending and writing PHP stuff?

Rob: [00:41:03] Well, No, I have, I won’t, I mean, I w I shouldn’t say it like that. I only have, I only have so much left in my brain. Like, I feel like PHP, PHP is, is a universe, and a different way of thinking. And I think it’s interesting. I just, if I start down that path, I probably will get lost in the forest. So I,

Forever

Kevin: [00:41:25] will it dominate your destiny?

Rob: [00:41:27] Yes. Forever really dominate. Right. Exactly. Oh God. So no. So what I’m doing now is I’m just literally, I’m trying to come up with ways to put videos in front of people. So

Jon: [00:41:39] Yeah.

Rob: [00:41:40] you know, it’s, I’ve, I’ve gone with, I actually made a Nuxt app, you know, that. And it works. Okay. But then it’s, it’s interesting because like, I was able to get the functionality of this Nuxt app up and going fast, like, you know, next video and what are you watching?

And I’ve got, it was really beautiful. I mean, it came together really well, but then, but then it’s like, well, okay, cool. So we’ve got, we’ve got to, you know, a 0.01, you know, the next part is like, well, what are people watching? How often are they watching it? You know, and like what, what about an RSS feed?

What about, you know, like these Twitter cards, what about blah, blah, blah, like on and on and on you start to getting into marketing and like, Oh my God. And then you just realize, like, I don’t want to do any of this and then like search functionality. And what about like, having like maybe just a partial thing where someone can watch the first 20 seconds and then you turn it off like, Oh God spare me from this.

And then of course you go into WordPress. It’s like, Hey, here’s a plugin for Vimeo that only show the first 30 seconds lesser part of your membership site. Like, wait, how did you, how do you, Oh right. Cause you run half or third of the fricking internet. Of course you, you know, anyway.

Jon: [00:42:50] Yeah, that’s

Kevin: [00:42:50] orchard? Rob is orchard, still a thing.

Rob: [00:42:54] Oh,

Jon: [00:42:57] You know, it’s funny. I mean, orchard, orchard still plugging away.

Rob: [00:43:02] Oh.

Jon: [00:43:04] Well, so, but I mean, I don’t think orchard now orchard core. Is it all related to

Rob: [00:43:10] Oh, you said

Jon: [00:43:11] or treatment?

Rob: [00:43:12] you said plugin. So I had to,

Jon: [00:43:13] yes.

Rob: [00:43:14] So you did your own dad joke and didn’t even realize it. yeah, no, I, yeah. Yeah. I’m sure orchard would probably be a I’ll investigate that later. Thanks, Kevin.

Kevin: [00:43:26] Sure.

Rob: [00:43:28] I know Bertrand’s probably listening right now. Nevermind. I can’t swear. And can’t swear in French and I won’t bother cause like bothers him more if I try.

Jon: [00:43:39] Yeah, good stuff. Yeah. I mean, I guess that is part of the thing, like the whole plugin model is just pretty amazing, right? It’s like, that is a reason why WordPress works so well. And that’s the reason why a lot of languages get super popular. Like, you know, I don’t know. I’m just thinking around like NPM and, you know, I

Rob: [00:44:01] Well, you know, it’s funny you bring up WordPress to people and they’re like, Oh my God, it’s such a pile of stinking crap, which I’m not going to debate at the same time. You know, like a lot of people will say, Oh, it’s so insecure. You know, like it’s, it’s this structured really simple platform that is hackable, which it is it’s insecure because blah, blah, blah it’s.

So they. It’s interesting to me, they make the next logical leap, which is, will therefore PHP and WordPress, my suck, you know, and then my counter to that is, dude, this thing runs a third of the frickin web. Right. So yeah, I mean, It’s going to be under a, just crazy amount of attack. Right? So if .NET ran a third of the damn web, you could be, you could be guaranteed.

You will find every, a single hack possible to get into whatever platform you’re using. You know what I mean? And like, I mean, ah, I don’t want to go too off on that, but to me that’s important to

Jon: [00:44:57] Your surface

Rob: [00:44:57] that perspective. Yeah, not again, I sound like a total WordPress advocate right now. I’m not, I just, I look at this, like, I feel I like as technology people there’s there is a split brain kind of thing happening here where.

You know, we, as software people look have down on WordPress, you know, let’s software people, whatever, call them. I don’t know this, like subset of people who are, who are doing it, Ruby and Python, node, .NET, et cetera. Right. And you’re like, Oh God, WordPress. You know, you know, I don’t, I’m not going to touch that.

That’s horrible. But yet WordPress is the dominant thing and I’ve never, I, for the last few years, I’ve never really, I understood that. And I really feel like it’s important for everybody to do that.

Jon: [00:45:39] I just really am impressed with how they’ve continued to like grow up as a platform and move from. Like, there was a time, five or more years ago where. I was always worried about getting hacked and now, like every time I log in, it’s automatically updated. I there’s a few extensions, you install, I put CloudFlare on it and it’s like, I don’t worry about it.

You know? And it just, it scales pretty well. It’s like, I don’t. So I guess that’s, I feel like that’s a success story as a, as an open source platform to have evolve that well, like their release management is just solid, you know?

Rob: [00:46:15] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know,

Kevin: [00:46:17] Yes. We talk about cutting edge technology here

Jon: [00:46:19] There you go.

Kevin: [00:46:20] and gentlemen.

Jon: [00:46:22] What did we talk about? Excel word, press. What’s next.

Rob: [00:46:29] what is fine? It, Eric, the guy working with Erickson, Martin, we were talking about doing this streaming thing and he, and he was, you know, he was just gushing about all this technology and he’s like, you know, what, if we’re going to do that, we have to learn rust. I don’t know. And I’m like, yes, I just jumped out of my chair, like anything to learn rust. then, you know, it’s like in the back of my mind and like, what. What is that going to serve again?

Jon: [00:46:54] I read some things that Microsoft is using rest more. I don’t really know much. I’ve already said more than I understand, but

Rob: [00:47:02] No, I don’t know.

Jon: [00:47:03] I have read like, I mean, I guess for, for system level stuff, it’s. It’s better for writing safe code. that’s about all

Rob: [00:47:15] Let’s

Jon: [00:47:16] those are words. I feel those are words. I feel mostly confident about saying I don’t understand why.

Rob: [00:47:22] are, there are hundreds of developers getting out of their seat right now, walking into their boss’s office, going Jon Galloway says…

Jon: [00:47:28] That’s

Rob: [00:47:29] rust makes things safer.

Jon: [00:47:32] You know, it will be interesting. That’s something we should like maybe try and get someone onto that knows rest to talk about that. Cause it’s but I have, I read some sort of thing and it was like, God, I don’t know. I’ve read a thing.

Rob: [00:47:47] There’s a person in my group at Microsoft. His name is Ryan Leveck and he was on the Wunderlist team and he is our local rust expert. He runs rest meetups in Berlin. He’s an amazing guy. And I hate him because his voice he’s got one of these voices. It’s like, Just dripping silk, just deep. I don’t know.

It’s just a first time I talked to him. I said, I hated him. was, you know, it’s like, hi, I’m Ryan. I hate you. Right now

Jon: [00:48:17] Yeah, no, I don’t know

Rob: [00:48:18] Yeah. All right.

Jon: [00:48:19] what, what is rests package manager? Everybody’s got to have a package manager

Kevin: [00:48:25] Cargo.

Jon: [00:48:26] cargo. That’s right. I installed it at one point for some thing. And then have not since. I don’t know. It’s good

Kevin: [00:48:35] I, the only thing I know about rust is one of the cargo is my commander, but, two is that, somebody, I forget who it was, wrote a shell in rust. God now I’m totally blanking on the name and it’s going to piss me off. hold on one sec. Googling

Jon: [00:48:52] I’ll have to look it up.

Kevin: [00:48:54] Oh yeah. New shell. It’s called. and I was intrigued by it because, so I never really took the PowerShell.

I mean, I can kind of fumble my way through it, but I always kind of hated the. The, the verbosity of it and the kind of weird syntax. but I did like the object orientation of it, I guess the, you know, the fact that the things that go flow through the pipeline or objects and not just text, that was like the killer feature.

so new shell is, has that philosophy where, you know, you’re, you’re piping objects between. You know, different operators and functions.

Jon: [00:49:34] Yeah. I’m looking at it now. It’s

Kevin: [00:49:36] but without the kind of arcane syntax that, that, PowerShell uses. So

Jon: [00:49:41] It’s funny though, as I’m looking at the sample code here, so it’s github/nushell/nushell and it’s like a. It’s funny because PowerShell does have a lot of aliases that are similar to this. So like LS, pipe, something, or other would work in PowerShell too. but you have to know the things, you know, I dunno.

Yeah. That’s neat. yeah. cool. Cool. Yeah. I guess, you know, one other thing, just, you know, as far as new issue on the way things there’s, they’re .NET 5, .NET 6. so I

Kevin: [00:50:21] I did six. Wait,

Jon: [00:50:22] I, okay, so .NET 5 do out November and then .NET 6 is the LTS, the longterm support version due out in 2021.

And, and so the idea is they’re having similar to like node and Ubuntu, and the like this, I don’t know, kind of a guaranteed release schedule so that people can plan on it. and then they went with, instead of people were confused, like we actually did have people that mix because there’s .NET Framework 4.8 and .NET Core 3, people were like, Oh, the new, the highest version number. It must be the right one. So they would use .NET Framework 4.8 instead. so anyhow that’s they were just like, Nope, it’s all.net. It’s not in that five. Then that net six.net, whatever. So in originally there were like some neat features that were going to be in Dutton at five, but because of COVID and changing stuff around schedule wise and things, some of that stuff is now in .NET 6.

so. Yeah, I’m just the, I don’t know. Neat. I keep an eye on their, they’re doing, they keep doing neat stuff with, intrinsics hardware intrinsics which like blows my mind to see like they’ll, they’ll optimize stuff in the compiler. So like, it’s doing all kinds of, like, it’s just using all these features that have apparently been in, you know, the chips out for awhile, but you have to like, write some smart assembly code to actually use them. So that’s kind of cool.

Kevin: [00:51:55] So I have a purely hypothetical question, which is not hypothetical at all, which is, you know, we have a, we have a applicant, one of our applications is written in.net framework for, and, you know, hosted on windows. And I would love to have it not be someday. you know, what is the, what is the migration path for.net framework?

You know, asp.net, MVC kind of applications. Is that hugely painful? Is it. There, you know, conversion tools.

Jon: [00:52:24] Well, so a lot of it is, it depends. there’s, there’s not like a run a tool and it’ll update your. Your thing. If you’re using MVC, it’s a lot. It’s generally smoother it, but it depends how much you’ve customized stuff. So like, if you’ve done action filters and you’ve written, you’ve like, you know, hooked into a lot of stuff in the pipeline.

And especially if you’re doing, using like the identity system, then like all of those are areas where they change over time, the actual like model view and controller thing, those are probably the least likely, you know, those have changed the least like razor as a language hasn’t changed that much. And yeah.

You know, the controllers are pretty similar. So it’s more of the, kind of got some internals where you could override an extend stuff. Those are, those are the cases I’ve talked to people where it’s like, Oh, you’re kind of screwed. You know? Like, so I don’t know if that makes sense, but

Kevin: [00:53:23] This is not a, not a case where I can like open my project in visual studio, 2021. And like, you know, magically works

Jon: [00:53:33] no, no, not really. Yeah. So it’s like a, you know, there’s definitely, there is a migration, out in the, in the ASP.NET Docs where they like talk through, here are the steps you do. and it really depends on like how well factored it is. Like the service code you can, you can use .NET standard and you can like, You know, that migrates over pretty cleanly.

Cause it’s just .net is .net code, but it’s more the, really, a lot of it is the startup hosting staff. So like there’s no more Global.asax There’s no more web.Config. All the configuration and startup stuff have changed around. and then some other things get simpler. Cause there’s dependency injection, like just it’s built into everything.

So that simplifies some stuff where before. You know, you had to, you had to configure all that sort of stuff. So, but it’s, it’s hard. There’s not like a simple one size fits all because MVC is like, there are a lot of different ways people use MVC. you know, there’s not like a canned answer for it really. I don’t know if it’s helpful, but you know what I’m saying? You could, you could override the view engine. You could override the, you know, Stuff about, you know, you could have complex stuff set up with, with dependency. You could have action filters. You could have, you know, custom, I dunno, ActionInvokers and all kinds of things that are already escaping my brain now.

Well, so it’s right about an hour. Do you think we should kind of wrap up here?

Rob: [00:55:08] We haven’t picked on Kevin enough.

Jon: [00:55:11] Nice. Alright. Well, I have no idea how we can wrap this up. So I think we should end up with a knock knock joke. No, I’m kidding.

Rob: [00:55:22] I got it. I got a good one. Knock,

Jon: [00:55:24] Oh, good. Who’s there.

Rob: [00:55:26] smell, mop.

Jon: [00:55:30] and that’s all the time we have this week.

Rob: [00:55:35] Come on. It’s like the biggest and oldest dad joke. You guys have heard that one, right?

Jon: [00:55:40] Yeah,

Rob: [00:55:41] You’ve never heard smell mob. Are you going to cut this out, Jon? You can’t cut this out. Smell. Mop is probably one of the best jokes ever.

Jon: [00:55:48] smell mop.

Rob: [00:55:50] Yeah. There you go. That’s gross, Jon. I can’t, I can’t believe you actually said it.

That’s really gross.

Jon: [00:55:56] we’re going to get kicked off the internet. If we have that end a podcast that includes PHP WordPress.

Rob: [00:56:04] Yeah, it’s true. I have to agree with that one,

Jon: [00:56:07] I think, yeah, I think to balance this out, we need to end with, with like maybe an English accent in some like, you know, some like, what is it? , you know, some like, you know, erudite music.

Rob: [00:56:22] You mean like talking about Brexit?

Jon: [00:56:25] Wonderful. Alright. Well,

Kevin: [00:56:28] are, I promise our Q3 podcast will be better.

Rob: [00:56:34] Oh, man.

Jon: [00:56:35] right. Well, since I’m cutting a chunk out, I’m just going to cut all that out.

Rob: [00:56:40] Yeah, you should start using start the whole podcast with that.

Jon: [00:56:44] That’s right. Well, this has been, well, this has been a fascinating discussion. Hopefully the next time we talk, it will be an even more fascinating discussion and I will not be wearing a mask, the entire podcast.

Rob: [00:57:00] Okay. My name is smell. Mop. All right. This

Kevin: [00:57:11] Jon, when we have our, when we have our subscription program, this is the kind of

Jon: [00:57:15] That’s right. That’s right.

Rob: [00:57:17] Yeah,

Jon: [00:57:18] No, I think people will pay to exclude it. They will pay more to not have this portion.

Rob: [00:57:24] And maybe the podcast will be hosted on WordPress at that. Oh, wait a

Jon: [00:57:28] it already is. It already is wonderful.

Rob: [00:57:32] Sorry.

Jon: [00:57:33] All right.

Rob: [00:57:35] Bye

Jon: [00:57:35] That’s wonderful. Thanks everyone. I will now stop recording.

Rob: [00:57:42] Smell mop!