We, the Subplot (or Flying Monkeys) - An Interview with Michael Crummey about The Adversary

Getting Lit with Linda - The Canadian Literature Podcast

What are flying monkeys?, Linda wonders - until her friend illuminates their place in relation to narcissists. Narcissism is key to understanding the Widow and Abe Strapp, two deliciously terrible main characters in Michael Crummey's novel, The Adversary (Knopf) -- which just won the Dublin Literary Award for 2025; this psychology is also key to understanding why certain subplot characters choose to orbit around them.

Since the novel may be read as a kind of running commentary on the present political moment, we must remember that we - not just readers, but rather the people who might see our reflections in the "subplot" characters - are important to the kinds of decisions made. The conditions of the subplot are affected by those of the plot - but that may also work in reverse. The interview with Crummey also connects his earlier novel, The Innocents (2019, Random House Canada), and The Adversary to William Blake's Songs of Innocence and Experience, explaining how these two novels might be read in relation to each other.

Linda Morra (executive producer); Maia Harris (associate producer); Raphael Krux (music)

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