Agencies and ageism

Agency Leadership Podcast

In this episode, Chip and Gini explore the challenges of ageism within the PR and marketing industries, with a focus on agencies. They discuss the stereotypes associated with older professionals, particularly concerning their perceived familiarity with platforms like TikTok.

They emphasize the value of experience and the misconceptions around the cost of hiring experienced talent.

They advocate for creative solutions like flexible hiring and service delivery models including fractional roles to incorporate senior expertise while balancing the cost to clients and agencies alike.

Additionally, the conversation addresses the importance of continual professional development for current team members and offers advice to experienced job seekers on navigating ageism in their job search.

The co-hosts also offer insights for older, more experienced job-seekers on maintaining a positive presence in the job market and using one’s network effectively.

Key takeaways

• Chip Griffin: “Flexibility is absolutely key because the workforce overall, not just in our space, has changed so much in recent years that I think everybody needs to be thinking about more creative employment solutions.”
• Gini Dietrich: “Look for people that can help you reach your goals more effectively. And it doesn’t have to cost a whole ton of money.”
• Chip Griffin: “There’s no risk in conversations. No matter whether it’s with a prospective hire, a prospective client, a prospective partner. Just talk to people.”
• Gini Dietrich: “It’s going to take somebody with 30 years of experience significantly less time to do something than somebody with two years of experience. And so you actually may be saving money in the long run.”

Related

• Fractional C-level help for agencies
• Should your agency hire specialists, generalists, or fractional team members?

View Transcript

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.

Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin.

And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: Gini, I’m old.

Actually, this week I do, I do feel very old.

Gini Dietrich: You’ve been working a ton, that’s why.

Chip Griffin: I’ve been doing too much, you know. Sometime I have to learn to say no to certain things, but I’m not, I’m not very good at it, so.

Gini Dietrich: 80 hour work weeks don’t work anymore.

Chip Griffin: Well, I mean, but, but half of that is my hobby job, so that’s different,

Gini Dietrich: Sure, but it’s still work. It does count.

Chip Griffin: It’s really more physically demanding, you know, my wife said to me the other day, she said, you did a lot of squats during that portrait session. I’m like, I was photographing a young lady who was about five feet tall. So.

What it takes.

Chip Griffin: Unless I just shoot down on her for the whole thing. That’s probably not going to work out too well, unless I get low.

It just reminds me of baseball umpiring, but I also felt old doing that. So, but, but we’re not talking so much about my age today, but age in general, and in particular ages of when it comes to PR and marketing, because this seems to be coming an increasingly prevalent problem is it’s certainly not limited to the world of PR and marketing, but I think that obviously that’s what we talk about here.

So that will be part of the focus. But I think that part of it is, is particular to this industry, because there’s this perception that the older you are, the less you understand things like TikTok and, you know, all the latest and greatest communications tools. And while that may be true amongst the general population, I don’t think that’s necessarily true of experienced communicators and marketers.

And this is a problem that’s only going to get worse as, as the population continues to get grayer and continues to work longer and puts off retirement. And so, I mean, we all know people who are either continuing to work well into their later years, you know, I saw a post from from a friend of mine who’s, you know, he’s 80 and still working and and enjoys it.

I don’t know if he has to do it or if he wants to do it. Doesn’t matter. He’s doing it. Yep. I also know a lot of people who are north of 50 who are having a hard time looking for work and and in part it’s because people are either skeptical of how much they’re going to have to pay someone like that or their ability to know…

you know, all of the new trends and technologies and be able to communicate, but I think it’s, it’s an increasing issue and it’s something that we all need to be thoughtful about as agency leaders in, in terms of our own employees and how we’re continuing to advance their careers in terms of how we’re hiring and thinking about hiring.

And so it’s something I think we need to have on everybody’s radar screen more than it is today.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think there’s, I think there are some things that as agency leaders, we can think about in terms of still being able to hire people with experience. Because they, like, I understand there’s the perception that we may not know about TikTok, or we may not know how to do the latest Deadpool dance or whatever it happens to be, right?

Like, there’s that perception, which I don’t think is necessarily true. I think there are some people that are that way, but it’s not necessarily age related. I keep telling my sister in law that she’s the oldest millennial on earth because she acts like an 80 year old woman. She’s 40. She just turned 40.

So like, I don’t think it has anything to do with age. I think it has more to do with your ability to be curious and innovative and understanding, and, you know, just take in the world around you. But I do think there are some things that as agency leaders, we can do to ensure that we still have senior level expertise on our teams, even if we can’t afford the

you know, mid to high six figure salaries. There are lots of collectives that have started popping up where agencies are built based on kind of like the consulting model where you bring in people and put them on the bench and then bring them in as you need it based on what new business is coming in.

That’s a good way to do it. There are lots of really senior level people who are doing the, what’s called fractional CMO, CCO, whatever happens to be title happens to be, and they’re working for three or four clients. So you can get them for a quarter of their time, which is significantly less. And I think if you start to, to detail it out financially, you understand that

it’s going to take somebody with, you know, 30 years of experience, significantly less time to do something than somebody with two years of experience. And so you actually may be saving money in the long run. So I think it’s a really good exercise for us as agency leaders to think about how do we bring in, you know, different levels of experience and not just say, Oh, my gosh, I can’t in my head. I know I can’t afford this person, so I’m not even going to talk to them.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, I think so much of it comes down to these preconceived notions. And as you point out, someone who is more experienced, they may end up being cheaper in the long run because they can do, you know, better, faster work.

And so, that actually has a real impact on the bottom line, even though their salary might be higher. But I think there’s also the preconceived belief that these folks are going to be really expensive. And before you even talk salary, people will often dismiss someone, well, they’ve got 15, 20, 30 years of experience that, you know, we’d never be able to afford that.

And, You know, I can tell you from experience that a lot of times when you guess, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s an experienced or less experienced, but you can often guess really wrong, both high and low, what people are looking for salary wise. I know when I’ve been evaluating businesses to do mergers and acquisitions with, I have done an awful job of figuring out from the outside, how much they actually make and how much revenue they have and all of those kinds of things.

So rather than going into it and allowing yourself to have those preconceived beliefs, you should talk about here’s what, here’s what my numbers are. Here’s what we’re paying for this position. And the person can then disqualify themselves or not. And so it does make sense to get those salary ranges out early, but if they don’t, then they may actually be a good fit because there are plenty of people with a lot of experience that for whatever reason, they’re Aren’t looking for a huge payday and maybe they’re more interested in in the work that they find fulfilling and maybe they’ve got a spouse who has also gotten an income stream, so it’s not as important or their kids are off in college, you know, they’re done, they’ve moved on.

So now they don’t have the same financial needs that they may have had previously. So you have to be really careful about these preconceived notions and and applying your own perspective to it because a lot of agency owners, you know, they may still be, you know, having kids who are coming up through school and they’re thinking about paying for college while they’re also saving for retirement while they’re doing all these other things, but the people you’re hiring may not be.

They may have different Interests and pressures that, that are, that you won’t know about until you actually talk with them.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think it’s the same thing as I talk to a lot of my clients about this a lot is, you know, somebody will say, well, I don’t think the prospect can afford that. And I’m like, well, how do you know?

Why are you negotiating with yourself? Stop negotiating against yourself and actually put a price out there to see. And it’s the same thing here, I think, where it’s, you know, if you need somebody who can handle client meetings and be really strategic with and you be comfortable handing off day to day Clients service to somebody Then why wouldn’t you talk to somebody with several years many years of experience because they have the experience They know what to do all of those things, right?

Instead of saying well, I probably can’t afford them so I’m not even going to talk to them. And I think what you’ll find is if you’re flexible and nimble enough to find different services I guess hybrid arrangements, kind of like our hybrid work environment, same kind of thing here. Like maybe you bring them in for 10 hours a week, or maybe it’s 20 hours a week or, you know, whatever happens to be, but don’t negotiate against yourself.

Ever. Don’t do it with prospects. Don’t do it with candidates. Don’t do it at all. Just like you have to figure out to your point. You, you don’t know, just based on your own preconceived notions, what it, what it is. So have the conversation.

Chip Griffin: I mean, there’s, I mean, I, I say this to clients all the time.

There’s no risk in conversations.

Gini Dietrich: That’s right. That’s right.

Chip Griffin: No matter what, whether it’s with a prospective hire, a prospective client, a prospective partner, I mean, whatever, just, just talk to people. You’d be shocked at what you might actually learn if you, if you go into conversations with an open mind and see what there is.

And you know, I, I do think that when you are hiring someone who has more experience you do need to ask good questions, right? Because I’m not saying that that everyone with experience is a good fit for you, even if you can afford them. There are, we’ve talked previously about how small agencies need to be careful about hiring people who’ve come from large agencies, for example.

And so if you’re, if you’re looking at someone who is more experienced, but their experience is largely with larger agencies. You need to explore that and really understand if they would fit in the environment that you have. And, and part of the challenge is because there is such prevalent ageism, a lot of folks who are north of 50 or even north of 40 in some cases are out there and they are applying for more than what they would typically apply for.

So you do need to make sure that is a proper fit for you. So I’m not saying that just because someone’s experienced, you should throw all your concerns out the window and go out and hire them if you can afford them. But you, but you do want to just think those things through because you do want the right fit still.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And I think somebody like when I was starting my agency, I was very young and I hired a managing, managing supervisor who was about 25 years older than me. And what she did was she came in and created processes. She did all the statements like our, our process, our procedures. She created teams.

She created a hierarchical organizational chart. Some of it worked and some of it didn’t, you know, and she and I would have, would kind of go around and around sometimes about things, but because she had that experience that I didn’t have, she was able to help me grow my agency a lot more quickly, in a shorter amount of time because of it.

So, you know, and I’m also very, I’m not a process person and I’m not a statement of work person. Like I say, I know how to do this and I can go do it. But like, for me to sit down and do and say, well, it was this and this and this and this and this, I’m not that type of person. So she was really great for the agency and she developed all of that stuff.

And it was her experience that allowed her to do that because she had worked in an agency of my size at the time. Previously, she’d also worked in a large agencies, so she was able to take it. Now in the long run to your point, she was not a culture fit and we ended up parting ways, but she did help me create the structure for the business that I was missing.

And it was because she had so much more experience than I did. So again, not, you know, look for people that can help you reach your goals more effectively. And it doesn’t have to cost, like, she didn’t cost me a whole ton of money.

Chip Griffin: Well, and I think the other thing to think about here is it’s not simply something you need to think about when it comes to recruiting.

You need to think about it with your current team as well. And so particularly if you’re, you know, an agency owner, who’s been around for a while, and you’ve got folks who have been with you for a period of time and, you know, they’re gaining experience and therefore also, by the way, growing older, you need to try to make sure that you’re providing them with the professional development opportunities so that they are keeping current with things, right?

And one of the risks that small agencies run is that you overload employees with so much day to day work that they don’t have time.

Gini Dietrich: Yep.

Chip Griffin: To explore ChatGPT or TikTok or all of these other things that would benefit not just the agency, but also themselves because you want them to be as empowered as possible, both for the work they’re doing for you.

And I mean, frankly, you know, part of your obligation to all of your employees is to set them up for their own futures, even if that is not with you five years down the road. And so you’re doing them a disservice, whether you’ve got someone with two years of experience or 20, if you’re not helping them continue to grow while they work for you.

Gini Dietrich: And I think you’re doing your clients a disservice too, because if they’re not able to grow and learn new technologies and test it out and iterate and learn what works and what doesn’t, then same thing for your clients. Your clients get stale and then they’re, they’re disappointed because you’re not doing, you’re not moving their business forward or coming with new ideas.

And, and I think there’s a big, big thing for that too. So it’s, you know, it’s for their own careers, but it’s for your clients as well.

Chip Griffin: So now let’s, let’s flip the tables a little bit. And so if you are one of those folks in the workforce who is looking for employment after you’ve gained a lot of work experience, what advice do you give those folks as they’re, they’re out hunting, knowing that they’re, they’re facing this headwind of ageism in the workplace?

Gini Dietrich: I mean, thank heaven I own my own business and I don’t have to face it. But you know, that’s not to say that I wouldn’t face it with prospects too, where it’s like, Oh, you guys don’t, you guys seemed old and you know, whatever happens to be. But I would say for people, and I think you and I both have some friends who are facing this, that really it’s about, I would say, being flexible and helping an agency owner understand, or an agency leader understand what you can bring to the table.

And that maybe it’s not full time. So think about these other opportunities that have arisen since the pandemic, where you have these agency collectives that only bring in, now it’s, it’s not a salary and it’s not benefits, you know, but it does provide you a more stable, for lack of a better term, freelance, cadre of clients where they’re bringing that all to you and you’re doing the work, right?

So you still have to pay your own benefits. You still have to pay your own taxes. You still have to do those things as if you’re on your own because you don’t have to go after the new business and you don’t have to manage the backend side of things. So there are the collectives, you know, the fractional, Title that I mentioned earlier has made this huge uprising since 2020.

And, you know, you can be a fractional CEO or chief content officer or chief communications officer, chief marketing officer, and have three or four clients and probably make more money than you would anywhere else. So I think for, for those of you looking for roles, that it, that’s the kind of thing that you should be thinking about is be really flexible in what kind of working arrangement and I think so many people say well I have to have the stability and I have to have the paycheck and I have to have the benefits. And my question to that is why? Why do you have to have it? Because I think you’re going to make more money And be more stable in the long run, probably without those things.

Chip Griffin: Look, I mean, I think flexibility is absolutely key because I mean, honestly, the workforce overall, not just in, in our space is changing so much and has changed so much in recent years that, that I think everybody needs to be thinking about more creative employment solutions. I mean, we’re even seeing, you know, folks who are just out of school who are doing, you know, part time freelancing, contracting, that kind of thing, which I mean, when I got out of college, nobody ever thought about way back then.

Right. You went in and got a normal 40 hour week job and nobody started out as a contractor. Nobody started out being an entrepreneur. They all went off and, and, and had a regular job first. And so, you know, you need to be, if you are someone who, you know, that’s how you grew up and that’s, that’s your experience for the last 20 or 30 years, you need to be open to the idea.

that that may not be the solution, at least for now. And so, and frankly, it’s easier to make connections by doing that kind of work that might lead to a full time role at some point. I mean, yes, it’s, you know, it’s important to be out there if you’re job hunting and sending out resumes and all that kind of stuff.

But at the same time, the relationships that you build by doing contract work, freelance arrangements, working with collectives, all of these different things that you mentioned, that can help you to A put money in your pocket today, which in most cases is helpful and important, but also provide you that stepping stone for a future opportunity that you might not have gotten.

If you’re just sitting there and spraying and praying with, with resumes.

Gini Dietrich: Absolutely. Yeah. I think there, that’s a really good point. And I think there are lots of different ways to, to do this today. You know, that we, the opportunities we didn’t have even four years ago. So really be flexible and think about

gosh, if I did this, this and this, and I understand it’s scary and I understand, you know, all of those things, but it’s, it’s not any more scary, I don’t think than not having a job and spraying and praying and trying to, to, to get interviews. So take control of your destiny, make sure that it works for you and be flexible in the way that you can do it.

Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I would say, you know, be careful about allowing the frustration to consume you, because I’ve seen some folks I know where the frustration becomes almost overwhelming at what they’re facing. And I think that it’s important to be out there and, you know, certainly look at the flexible things that you can do and be more open to them than you might generally prefer to be. But I think part of it too is, is making sure that you are continuing to grow, right? I mean, if you’re in the middle of a job hunt, you’re not going to spend eight hours a day, every day at it, right? I mean, unless you’re really just bombarding people who aren’t really good fits. I mean, if you’re being thoughtful about where you’re applying and, and pushing forward with those things, you’re going to have time available.

With that time available, do things to brush up on your knowledge, increase your skill set. Get out there and be talking on LinkedIn and other places to show that you’re thinking about these things, you know, almost as if you were actually an agency owner, right, which obviously is most of our listeners, but I’m sure that some others will, will have this episode referred to them and they’ll, they’ll check it out.

But those are all powerful things that you can do. In order to combat the, the unfortunate ageism that is out there. And, I think going, you know, just being frustrated. And I see some folks who post regularly on, on social media about, you know, their concerns about this and the fact that they are facing ageism.

Yes, fine. You can say that from time to time, but at the same time, you’ve really got to be putting yourself out there because potential employers, potential, you know, agencies that might want to subcontract with you. They want to see your, your thoughtful thinking. They don’t want to hear, you know, the challenges that you’re facing.

And that’s not to minimize them, but that’s just reality. If you want to get out there, you know, you need to put your best foot forward.

Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I, I mean, I liken this to, I remember probably six or seven years ago, A pretty good friend of mine used social media to vent all of her frustrations about her employer, about her life, about, about everything, about friends, about everything.

And I remember sitting down with her at one point and saying, listen, I understand that you’re frustrated, but what you’re doing is you’re saying to people, don’t be friends with her. Don’t hire her like all of these things. And she poopooed me. And that was probably six years ago. And to this day, she still does not have a full time job.

And it’s because. She continues to say really negative things about everyone on social media and potential employers see that and you know, you see that and you think, gosh, I don’t know that I really want that person to be on my team. So I think you, to your point, you can, you know, vent your frustration from time to time, but you know, when I’m looking for somebody, I want to know how they think.

What kind of culture fits are going to be, do they have thought leadership? Do they do they think the same way that we do or do they have different ways of approaching things? I want to know those things before i’ll even talk to you. And and so I think and I’m not in the minority on that. I think just you know So a good balance is a good, is a good recommendation.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And then finally, the last thing I’d say is it’s important to make sure that the folks in your network are regularly reminded of what you’re looking for, whether that is in terms of full time employment, freelance opportunities, etc. Because, you know, we all have bad memories. And so, you know, you need to be prodded from time to time and reminded of things.

So that means that in addition to, you know, getting out there and applying with employers, you need to use your social media platforms. You need to use your email connections and remind people of what it is that you’re looking for so that you stay top of mind. I mean, it’s the same advice that we give.

And if you can listen to any of the episodes about growing your agency, you need to be right place, right time. You need to be on the top of that person’s mind when they say, Oh, I need to hire someone for this. And if they’re not, if you’re not out there and reminding people, you’re going to get lost. And so even though, even though it may feel a little smarmy, it may feel like you just, God, I, I hate, kind of keep reminding people of this, you need to do it and there are, there are ways you can absolutely do it that don’t come across as, you know, cheesy or whiny or those kinds of things.

You just need to make sure that people know, you know, this is what, this is what I’m looking for.

Gini Dietrich: And it’s just like anything else that we do. Stay top of mind. Which you have to do and not everybody’s gonna see it the first time or the second time or the third time. Like I saw last week That a former employee of mine who I would love to rehire is looking for a job.

I had no idea. I had no idea who was looking for a job And he’s like i’ve been talking about this for six months and i’m like, I just saw it like So I didn’t know. So, you know remember too that just because you’ve said it over and over again and you’re tired of yourself doesn’t necessarily mean that anybody else is.

Chip Griffin: But I suspect at this point people may be getting tired of us talking about this subject, so

we will use that to draw,

we will draw this episode, it’s one of my least bad closes, I mean, you know, it’s corny, but at least it didn’t feel like a crash landing, I don’t think.

In any case, that will draw this episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast to a close. I am Chip Griffin.

Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich.

Chip Griffin: And it depends.