Spiritual Abuse in the Church & Jesus' Counsel for His People (John 15 & 16) Episode #198

The Burt (Not Ernie) Show

Hey there! Hello to ya today.

Here we are, for episode number 198 of the podcast, where we focus on God’s promises and make the decision to simply believe that what God has said is exactly what He meant. If He promised it, He means to honor His promise. Remember, God is not a man, that He should lie, and He always finishes what He begins. Knowing those two things leaves us no choice but to either believe Him for His every promise or to live as if He were lying to us. Which will you choose today?

Psalm 91 Audio Bible Study Course

You’re listening to The Burt (Not Ernie) Show, part of the Spark Network, now playing in the Edifi app. And this is episode number 198.

Ya know how there are times in life, like seasons if you will, periods of time, when the same kind of thing keeps coming up, over and over again. Maybe God has been speaking to you about hope, or loving others well, or accepting His grace, and everywhere you turn, that subject is right in front of you, staring you down, you might feel like. Can’t really get away from it. Boom, there it is. And wowza, there it is again. Ever experience that?

That’s been the case for me recently. Over the last few months, for sure one aspect of life as a follower of Jesus has been prominent. And I didn’t think it was a topic I’d cover on the podcast, at least not right now, fall of 2024. But I don’t get to pick and choose when and how I obey what the Lord says. I mean, I could, and I have of course, but it’s really wrong, and flat out sin. And this issue has been in the forefront of my life as of late, like I said, and the Holy Spirit led me to discuss it today.

In John 15 and 16 and 17, Jesus had so much to say to His disciples and for all who would follow Him later on, down the road, in the years and centuries to come. That includes us, of course. Jesus spoke about the importance of unity.

John 15 from the Amplified - 12 “This is My commandment, that you [c]love and unselfishly seek the best for one another, just as I have loved you. 13 No one has greater love [nor stronger commitment] than to lay down his own life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you keep on doing what I command you.

The header just before verse 12 says: Disciples’ Relation to Each Other

And the next section header says: Disciples’ Relation to the World

18 “If the world hates you [and it does], know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you belonged to the world, the world would love [you as] its own and would treat you with affection. But you are not of the world [you no longer belong to it], but I have chosen you out of the world. And because of this the world hates you. 20 Remember [and continue to remember] that I told you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

Does Jesus say that the world will treat His disciples well? Uh, duh. No. He told His disciples how to treat one another, and what to expect from the world. So people in the world are not the same as our fellow disciples and will not treat us the same way.

You may be thinking, “Uh, yeah… I know that, Jan. What is your point?”

Chapter 16, verse 1: “I have told you these things so that you will not stumble or be caught off guard and fall away.

So that you will not stumble or be caught off guard and fall away.

It’s a very real possibility that we will be caught off guard, surprised and thrown for a loop and stumble and even fall away because of it. But what is the “it” exactly? The terrible treatment of Jesus’ followers by those who don’t follow Him. When have you been treated really terribly for choosing the Jesus way? If it was from those who don’t know Him personally and are not His disciples, were you super shocked? It may hurt and be just a terrible experience. But you aren’t shocked by that nearly as much as you are when it happens within the church, by someone who claims to follow Jesus but perhaps, oh I am gonna get some hate mail for this, but Ima say it anyway…perhaps they don’t actually know Him, because the fruit of their life reveals that they don’t. We’re called by Jesus Himself to look at the fruit of people’s lives, and to know them by their fruit. That’s Scripture, my friend. That’s words in red. And we don’t likely stumble and fall away when someone who is not walking with Jesus, would never open a Bible or go to church or sing a worship song, when that person lamblasts you for your faith in Jesus, it probably isn't going to push you to fall away. Because you know who they are, it’s evident by looking at the fruit of their life. Right? But when it’s within the church (and hey, please remember Jesus Himself warned us that there would be wolves who come to devour the sheep, so this should not come as a shocker, what I’m saying here today)... when it’s quote one of our own, man, then it hits hard, it can cause a stumble, often we’re blindsided by it, and it can lead to falling away. My friend, I am boldly telling you today that this happens all the time in the church, and people will be held accountable by God Almighty for their actions against His people, the sheep of His flock. If it has happened to you, I am so very sorry. And if it happened at the hands of those in church leadership, I am grieved for you and for their abuse and misuse of the authority that really only ought to be about leading people to Jesus, if you boil it down, but is often not used for that purpose.

Control and manipulation are basically witchcraft. I mean, think about it. If you are twisting words, manipulating people, circumstances, using guilt and shame, turning Scripture this way and that in order to control people in any facet, it really is an evil thing to do. And it’s like being under a spell, and if you’ve experienced it, you know what I mean.

Do you think, and I am actually asking you to think about this and make up your own mind, but do you personally believe that Jesus’ call to unity in His church was intended for His true disciples to be unified with those who are in the church but are not truly following Him as disciples?

And at what point do you think Jesus would want His true disciples to deal with this “sticky situation”?

I know this can be a heavy topic, and it is controversial (but maybe it needs to be more normalized and less controversial to talk about the reality of, for lack of a better description, church abuse). And perhaps because there are so many people dealing with and reeling from this exact issue, I suppose this is the time and season to take a look at it through the lens of the Word of God. And as always, don’t just take my word for it - but take God’s Word for it, and read it for yourself. John chapters 15 and 16 are what I’ve been reading from, so dive in and check it out. Pray about what you read, listen for the Holy Spirit to do what He does perfectly as the Counselor that Jesus promised in John 16 verses 5-15.

Over the last several months, several people have talked with me, reached out to me, connected with me, and so on, about real problems among church leadership and what in the world to do when you come face to face with some terrible stuff, and are treated terribly, even abusively, manipulated, guilted, controlled, shamed, slandered, oh boy some of the things that have been going on are truly terrible and there is no place for this stuff in God’s Kingdom, let alone among those who call themselves leaders in the Church that bears His name! It’s like we’ve stepped into the wonky zone, and things are all sorts of off kilter.

If I were to do one of those hard hitting expose pieces from the late 1980s, I would have ample material. This isn’t so much an expose as it is a CTA.

If you are being abused spiritually, can I challenge you to this CTA, this call to action? First, read the Gospels. Read what Jesus said, how He lived, what He did for people, what He didn’t do, what He approved of and what He disapproved of. Read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Do you see yourself as Jesus sees you? Are you being treated the way that He treated people when He walked the earth? Are those in authority over you in the Church living like Jesus, loving like Jesus, shepherding like Jesus? Pray on this! God wants you to see yourself the way He sees you. And He wants to be Lord in His church. The letters to the churches in Revelation tell us so very much about how seriously He takes this kind of thing.

Next, I want to boldly, strongly encourage you to do what the Bible says, and to follow where the Spirit leads. Remember what Jesus said in John 16, verses 5 through 15:

Let me read it from the NLT.

5 “But now I am going away to the one who sent me, and not one of you is asking where I am going. 6 Instead, you grieve because of what I’ve told you. 7 But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Advocate[a] won’t come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment. 9 The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me. 10 Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more. 11 Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged.

12 “There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. 14 He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’

Verse 7 amplified - 7 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the [a]Helper (Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor—Counselor, Strengthener, Standby) will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him (the Holy Spirit) to you [to be in close fellowship with you]

What is the Holy Spirit, your Comforter, Advocate, Intercessor, Counselor, Strenghtener, and your Standby saying to you? Leading you? Directing you? Counseling you? Strengthening you?

Church hurt is one thing, and it is a real thing and it is a terrible thing because it is so painful. Church abuse from leadership is another thing. Both can dwell together, for sure, but leadership abuse is the main focus of this episode. If you are dealing with this, can you look at it objectively and say yes or no to this question: is this behavior biblical or unbiblical? And are those in leadership telling me to keep enduring what is unbiblical, even though the very words of Jesus say it is wrong? Is it time to flee, like Joseph did when Potiphar’s wife tried to seduce him? He just left his cloak and fled. Could it be time to flee? What is your Counselor, the Holy Spirit, who is God dwelling within you, saying to you about the leadership abuse that’s going on?

And do you know that you know that you know that Jesus is absolutely never going to be spiritually abusive to you? And His true sheep, His chosen shepherds for His sheep, won’t either?

John 15:1 says “[a]I am the true Vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

He takes away. Follow the fruit. Might be far more important than the call to follow the money, for the Christian community.

6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken off] branch, and withers and dies; and they gather such branches and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you remain in Me and My words remain in you [that is, if we are vitally united and My message lives in your heart], ask whatever you wish and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified and honored by this, when you bear much fruit, and prove yourselves to be My [true] disciples.

Those are Jesus’ words.

This is an individual calling. We each have to follow Him, remain in Him, let His words remain in us, proving we are His true disciples by our fruit.

I’m going to try and tread lightly as I say this next bit (and I am issuing this caveat - these words I am about to utter, they ARE NOT AT ALL related to 1919 S. Rock… )

If you need to leave a local church body because there is abuse happening, and you have looked and seen what the fruit or lack thereof is (or isn’t), if the Spirit of the Living God says, “go”... then I say to you, obey the Lord. Obedience is better than sacrifice. Those who love Jesus will obey Him. And when we get the sense that the Holy Spirit is leading us out of someplace, it seems to be that He is already moving along, ready to go, ready to lead us onward. By the time we sense Him moving, He is already moving…

So don’t over question when He is leading. And don’t let a bully pulpit or abusive leadership or manipulation or guilt and shame or twisting Scripture talk you out of following the Holy Spirit as He leads.

When He says it’s time to go, then go. Because delayed obedience is disobedience, and you don’t want any part of that.

Heavy topic today, and I’ll just say that I’ve prayed for everyone who listens because it is so heavy. Lord bless you, keep seeking hard after Jesus, and next episode we’ll be back to some of God’s promises and how important it is to know that those promises are for you. See you next time. Oh, and please share this episode with anyone you know who might be facing this issue. It’s hard, and sometimes we need a bit of encouragement, support, and understanding as we navigate it. You’re not alone, but there is so much hope, freedom, joy, peace and love in the Church on the other side of spiritual abuse. Jesus sees you, He feels your pain, and He has good for you and a path out of this and into His light and His love. So please share this, because it’s too important not to share.

I’ll be back for episode number 199 next time. Bye bye.